Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Lets do a collaboration

#121

As for the mix, I think Larry is making it to play to rather than a final version. The voices are way down and the Bass is a bit hot, and the rhythm guitar is Way louder than needed. The guitar rhythm is what is drowning a lot of the other stuff out. It still sounds to me there are a ton too much effects on the vocals, and a bit much on the instruments yet too, but that’s just my ear…

I like the harmony on both the front and back ends. I’d consider putting it on the last line of every verse (although we never discussed it).

Fill? yes there will be plenty, if anyone wants to do some fine, otherwise I’m presently cutting the entire banjo track now. Not sure how long it will take as each voice or instrument gets its own back-up part and it is a lot of work (wouldn’t be quite so bad if I was more skilled…duh). I’m hoping I’m about 1/2 done now.

Jesse, your guitar track sounds much cleaner now, and the tone is much more natural. Nice buy!

#122

Oldhat, the new intro may not sound much different in the context of the song, but if you A/B them there is a world of difference. It’s a lot quieter between your notes now. I stuck the new intro exactly over the old one, so I believe the timing is right, but the transition to the first verse isn’t so smooth now. I need to tinker with it a bit. The first verse harmony isn’t as smooth as the last verse, either, but I’m still working on tightening it up.

As far as the mix goes, it’s in a constant state of flux because of all the new tracks being added. I have the banjo back in the mix mainly because it ends so abruptly, it’s absence is very noticable when it’s out in front of the mix. Once the final track is done I’ll bump it up. Just out of curiousity, I stuck a high frequency exciter on the banjo track yesterday and it really made it pop.

Dave, I think the bass is a little hot, too, but I never know what anyone else is hearing. When I listen through my laptop I hardly hear the bass at all. I also noticed the guitar is ready to relinquish a little space now that the song is filling up.

I’ve tinkered with the vocal levels a few times, but they don’t seem way back in the mix to me. As far as the vocal effects, I do have reverb and a little delay on our solo lines, but none of the harmony vocals have any effects (other than some compression to keep us in the same dynamic range). I’ll dial back the 'verb on the lead lines with the next mix and see how you like it.

I had thought about putting harmony at the end of each verse, too. Might make the song more cohesive to have harmony interspersed throughout instead of just at the start and finish.

Jesse, I had read that I Know You Rider was one of the songs that Alan Lomax (and his father) preserved. I guess we owe them our thanks for having the song to sing. I believe it was one of the earlier songs that they documented, but unfortunately most of the stuff online is from later years. I haven’t run across it yet, but I’ll let you know if I do.

#123

I heard the reverb on the alone vocals but I was more concerned with the non-separation of the harmonies; I couldn’t here the individual voices much at all. Did you put in Four Parts? that might be what is throwing me somewhat, or it might be a bit over-compressed, I don’t know for sure. Might be my ears are shot from hearing so much banjo…

I’ll have a full banjo track uploaded (as unhappy with it as I am) in a few minutes.

#124

If no one steps up to the plate for the last lead do you guys want me to cut a fiddle part if I can?

#125

I am using four voices in the harmony, but I can spread them out quite a bit more. I’m only using about 50% of our stereo space right now.

I’ve been thinking about the last lead break, too. I was wondering what we might come up with if we split it up. The three lines would split nicely into banjo, guitar, mandolin.

#126

That would be fine on the lead break Larry, good idear!

Ahh, this explains the major problem I;m hearing…I had only intended it to be three part harmony and just gave you a choice of which Baritone to use. They are the same note (an octave apart) and tend to do weird things when both used. I would have cut a Bass voice instead of the low baritone for 4 part but decided not to.

#127

Okay, let me play with the different baritone tracks, then. I’m learning all the time.

Oldhat, I went back and listened to the mix I did earlier today, and you were exactly right, I had your intro one beat out of sync. See, I told you I’m not so reliable dropping those tracks in.

#128

Yeah on the harmony something is going on. On the last harmony I can pick out my voice and Dave’s lead but can’t hear yours Larry? I think about the only time I notice yours Larry is when you get out of tune! Haha…I can hear something in there and I hate to call you out on it but you or something goes sour in there, reminds me of reverb or feedback from a mic! I think it’s funny that everyone under the blue sky that wanted to look got to hear Dave adn I eek out our Harmonies as individual parts but no one got to hear your stand-alone track singing harmony! Haha, post it up, I want to hear it…don’t be afraid! Just consider it part of your learning experience.

The harmonies “scoop” nicely in my ear, create just enough dissonance then level out to the create the triad…I love to hear harmony act as such.

About the bass and rhythm guitar:

Now even though I had an insufficient Mic I do not have the same crap for headphones…I have got an exceptional set of headphones and yes, the bass is hot, teh rhythm guitar needs backed off in spots but in some spots I can hear it adding in. Dave’s verse to me does not stand out as much as your verse or my verse Larry, may try to beef his up.

Do I need to re-record my verse or not? If you would like me to I will. If my harmony line is messing up the otehrs then I will re-record it also…just let me know.

Oldhat

#129

Me, out of tune? I’m never out of tune, never out of time, and I never make spelling misteaks.

Some pretty big changes with this latest mix what with the banjo added, guitar break upgraded, and harmonies reworked. I also addressed some of the other tweaks you guys suggested. More feedback, please!

Jesse, if you don’t mind doing it, I think it would be worthwhile to do your verse over. It has more background noise than any of your other tracks. If you listen with headphones the change is pretty obvious, plus there is a little glitch, or blurb, in the recording, too. Might as well test out the mic on some vocals.

Ron has surfaced and he’s working on a break for our last slot!

Nice banjo work, Dave!

#130

Man I woke up to get ready for a day on the lake and I see you made a new clean cut of the stuff…sounds good!

How about this to improve things to get in better time for ones ear:

How about on my intro you back up everything one beat or so and let my guitar strum one more beat after the intro lead then your mando come in on the proper beat? This would not mess the rest of the timing up throughout the tune and it would make the singing come in when it’s expected. On my last intro I submitted there were additional strums there, so one more beat might clear it up for ones ear to get ready to hear the singing. Its more prominent now since Dave added in the same run on Banjo right after yours…so if you add a beat on the front end and let it go one more beat or so on the intro then it may work out…or however many you need…after an intro a few strums of guitar only is not uncommon to hear before everything else comes in on in bluegrass music and it would give us the only realistic opportunity to get it in time when referring to what the ear wants to hear.

Oh and i liked your mando over my intro…you gotta add that back in.

EDIT: I listened to it again, if you back it up and let the guitar strum a beat or so, then it would put you coming in on the mando right where Dave comes in currently on the banjo…so all it takes is adding in some space and let me get have a strum or so on the track with just the guitar. The timing would be correct as my intro is pretty independent and needs no timing then the lone guitar strum would get us in time.

Also I heard some very minor issues around 1:23 and around 1:39…seems the beat gets off slightly there and that may be why the guitar falls off later…it’s sounds or appears to be a function of editing or something…sounds like a “skip” like we used to get on the old needle when playing 45’s.

I uploaded the verse vocals of me singing…made the wife stir in the bed and the neighbors dog bark, cops may be here soon!

#131

Link for those following the thread so they can hear:

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=204577&projectId=33300

#132

Mix is getting much better Larry! I’ve been listening both with and without headphones as it comes out quite different each way.

I’m thinking there is no 1/3rd above on the last harmonies. Sounds like two 1/5ths above and creates ouch. If you could scratch my hi baritone part and keep Jesse’s that should fix it, Then if we need a 1/3rd one of us can cut it to that mix.

I uploaded what I think is mostly a better banjo track, seems a played a little better once the pressure to come up with a part was off…funny how that works…couldn’t have anything to do with the thousand times I’ve attempted this track so far haha

#133

Nice. Did you pan things out a bit more? It sounds cleaner.

#134

I’d be interested in hearing your opinion on the sound difference between the two banjo tracks.

One is recorded with an external mic and the other is with the built in mics on the recorder. Can you hear much of a difference or like one better than the other? (playing aside)

#135

Dave,

Haha, I liked your break. I could hear in it that you had just worked it out and had not “mastered” it yet. You are flying there…I imagine you banged your head against the wall many times in getting it up to speed…I like it!

I also enjoy you coming in how you do on the end of my lead break.

If I was gonna build a new “break” with any instrument I’d personally start with that 4 note chromatic run that I use to start the intro with, Larry does on the Mando and you do on the banjo…we all used it and would be an ideal run to base a lead from now and re-emphasize it in the song.

I likewise have listened to this on both a high quality set of headphones and the speakers on my laptop…sounds so much better through the headphones vs. the speakers on the laptop…the two sound a world apart.

#136

Thought I’d take a break from building my Ark (12 inches of rain and counting!) and work on some music for a while.

Thanks for all the feedback. I’ve often wondered what my mixes sound like on other platforms, and this is a great way to find out. I know it’s tempting to optimize the mix for headphones ('cause that’s how it sounds best), but I’m not so sure that’s how most people will listen to it.

Jesse, I’m not following your suggestion for the intro. Do you want your guitar to start earlier, or my mandolin to start later, or both? I’m not hearing the “skips” at 1:23 and 1:39, either, even after listening with headphones. Am I the only one not hearing it?

Dave, on the harmonies, the tenor part on both verses is the exact same recording by Jesse used twice. The difference you’re hearing must be with the baritone. On the first verse, I used your baritone, on the last verse I used my hi-baritone. I’ll record a baritone track for the last verse today, swap it out with the hi-baritone, and see if that smooths things out.

Mike, I didn’t re-pan any of the tracks. I think the clarity is the result of removing the fourth voice from the harmony and dropping the rhythm guitar and bass back into the mix a bit.

I’ll get your new tracks mixed in this afternoon.

#137

Was to hot to go fishing today…damn weather man…said it was supposed to get down to the “high 50’s” last night…I woke up and it was nice cool 80 degrees out! So I am doing “music all day” and have this forum opened up and am chattin’, while looking for info in the web about “cool sequences”.

Larry, to normalize that intro/how we get into singing…all that needs to happen from the last note of my intro is to let me just strum the guitar for a beat all by itself then let everything else comes in just like it does now (it may need 2 beats). That will normalize it.

Maybe I am hearing the “skip” in my headphones only? Also when I listen to my lead break it sounds like I am going in and out of tune? I have went back and listened to the individual track and it sounds good…something else in there adding to the sound of my guitar being sometimes slightly flat to out of tune at moments? Could it be that on my break I really was slightly flat and did not realize it until the other instruments were there in tune? Through my Headphones is the only place it really hear it and the “skip beats”…they are not skip beats but instead what I would call a bass note that starts then starts again…so lets say you get a bass note then 1/3 through the sine wave cycle the bass note starts again…that’s about the only way I can explain it.

Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I know my harmony sucks! I can do it again and really mess it up if you guys like!

#138

Good deal. I think the bass moving down a bit was probably what affected what I was hearing most. The banjer and vocals was what I noticed being cleaner. I think the mid bass frequencies were just overloaded with the bass being prominent. I am listening on some (decent) PC speakers with a sub that I would guess rolls off on the top at about 100 hz, so it’s a little bit prone to mid bass overload anyway.
As far as mixing, I generally start with headphones and then tweak on speakers. It just has a totally different vibe in the open air. It’s amazing the low frequency noises I miss on the headphones (they are entry level closed cup AKGs). I often have a mic close to the twelfth fret and I have a bad habit of exhaling into the mic. I don’t notice it on the headphones, but on the speakers it sounds like an earthquake. As a side note, I have taken to putting a pop filter on my 12th fret mic :slight_smile:
I hadn’t thought about how to set the sound stage for a typical BG band. Bass and lead vox more or less in center. I am guessing you would oppose mando and banjo right and left, but then what do you do with guitar? I am thinking biasing to the mando side, maybe half way between the mando and middle? It would help it sound more lush to double the track (or just record in stereo) and spread it left/right with a bias to whatever side you want to put it on. But then that gets away from the “natural/live” vibe most BG recordings have. I guess that’s the crux… how does one keep everything spread, lush and articulate and keep the feeling that you are listening to a live band. I usually spread the soundstage from hard left to hard right, and that helps keep the definition, but again, that’s not necessarily a good “natural” sound. The audience doesn’t normally sit right on center stage. I guess what I am saying is “Good luck!” As you find things that work for you, pass them along. That way we get to learn without putting in any work :slight_smile:
It’s been fun following your all’s project. It’s sounding great… keep it up.

#139

I’ll mess around with moving the intro. I guess it’s not really a bluegrass song until we add a partial measure anyway. And we also need at least one G lick fill, Mr.Guitar Player, as an homage to our leader.

As far as your intro going in and out of tune, I suspect it might be the file compression. I think mp3 compression really screws up acoustic guitar. I had the same thing happen to me on this Marshall Tucker song I’m doing.
[attachment=0]Can’t You See.mp3[/attachment]
I can play the song as a .wav and the guitar intro sounds great, but as soon as it’s compressed it gets that warbly sound. I notice you’ve been uploading your files as an mp3, then I’m recompressing them into another mp3 when I upload the mix. I think you said you are a paid member at Kompoz, so you can upload .wav files if you want. That would get rid of one layer of file compression.

I’m sure the issue with the last harmony is mine. I was really reaching to sing that high.

Mike, I’ve got all the tracks tucked into the middle 50% of my stereo space right now. Panning hard left and right would sure open things up, but like you said, I’m not sure that’s the sound we want for this project. (That’s how I have the acoustic guitars on the attached file - hard right and left. It gives a nice bounce to the rhythm.)

Right now the mando and banjo are on opposing sides (panned halfway) and the guitar, bass and lead vocals are right down the middle, but I’ll probably end up biasing the guitar to one side and sending the reverb to the equal, opposing side.

#140

MIke, listen to good recordings. leads are center, rhythm type backup slightly off to side. Same with vocals, lead center, harmonies slightly of to opposite sides. backup that is a lick between vocals should be on center or close and the same volume as the vocal.

panning is cursed the same as effects, most people tend to use way too much. 1/3 off center is plenty in most cases to give the needed effect in my experience.