I got to say I like the stereo separation of instruments most of the time, but if we’re trying to replicate the sound of a bluegrass band gathered around a single mic, there isn’t much separation to simulate.
Lets do a collaboration
Yup, I like things panned also but not to the point where you can only hear something totally form one side. It make for a very unbalanced recording usually., all instuments are not created equal (or some drool more than others)
but then again I think guitars should be felt & not heard…hehe
I like “Can’t you see.” Is that a real flute (or flutish instrument) or synth? If it’s synth, that’s pretty sweet (it’s sweet anyway, but you know what I mean). I like how you play the two rhythm parts so they bounce the rhythm left right between on and off beats. It drives it along.
I can attest that compression on compression can do bad things with pictures and data (including increasing space requirements… who’d of thunk it). On a single compression, I got the warblies on the attached (alex lifeson’s Hope) when it went to mp3. They are subtle, but there. I later tried a higher bit rate and I couldn’t notice it. Nevermind on the attached… it says the max size for attachment is 1MB. Oh well, point being, it seemed that higher bit rate helped fight the warblies as well.
I went and sampled some BG I had handy and based on my exhaustive 10 minute search 
there seems to be much variety. On traditional sounding recordings, they sound like people standing around a few static mics with a fairly tight soundstage. On a “modern” sounding BG CD, they tend to pan pretty liberally, and instruments move to center for leads and go out pretty hard (guessing about 80%) for rhythm. They also use things like stereo effects (subtle but there). Surprisingly it sounds like when there are a bunch of instruments, they quite often sound stacked instead of spread. For instance the reso and guitar sound like they are on the same spot of the soundstage. I would have guessed they would have tried to make a soundstage where the instruments are apread left to right. Perhaps the reason they do not do that as much is what we were talking about earlier (improving articulation with spread). Based on what I heard, I think ya’ll can take it where ever you wish (traditional or contemporary). Just make it sound so you like it and I think that will be as close to “right” as anything.
Fiddlewood:
Did I mention earlier when you referenced that I will “play easier” at some point in my recording… that I am used to a banjo player being next to me and I am like Pavlov’s dog and prep myself in anything that involves a banjo? Even though we are probably 900 miles apart just knowing there is going to be a banjer in the mix makes me want to play harder and louder!
Oh,
Larry I don’t know what it is, but my “warble” or “worble” or “wabble” is pretty prominent now when I play the track across all mediums (Headphones, Laptop speakers, or aftermarket speakers). Don’t know if others are experiencing this or not? It’s just not in my lead break, it’s over the entire song…just specific to my system maybe?..sounds like we are pushing and pulling each other through the entire song.
Damn banjer must of ruined my $1200 laptop!
Dave, I’m working with your new banjo track now, and I’ve been A/B’ing it with your old track within the context of the song. I think the first recording has a more balanced tone, while the second recording has more high end. At first I liked the second recording better because it seemed to have more punch, but after tinkering with the tracks I think I like the first one better. With a little EQ’ing it packs a punch while still keeping a fuller sound.
Mike, I’m glad you can confirm my suspicions about the evils of file compression. Thanks for your bluegrass recording research, too. Very interesting observations. Think I might have to try two different mixes when we get all the tracks in place - one contemporary, one traditional. The flute on my other track is a synth. It’s actually flute samples run through some type of note shaping program. It was kind of tough to use, but since it was only a few measures, I got it to work okay. The piano and drums are MIDI, too. I’m not a piano player, so I only figured out one hand.
Jesse, I don’t really notice a warble problem, but I’d be interested to know if Dave and Mike do.
the recording comes through clear and clean to me.
The difference in the tracks is machine mics or external mic. the first is the machine itself.
I would prefer using the second track mostly because the playing is better I think.
The first track is almost non-existant on the latter half. And the second was played more cleanly and has better backup licks I think.
The first track was cut in three parts and then mastered. the second track is a straight through track pretty much.
heck mix them up if you want; fine with me. 
I listened to it trying to pick up the warble, and I did not detect it. In order to better listen I killed the sub… VOILA! It cleared up like a bell. That bass (instrument) is awesome, but to my ear, it’s at a really high level when played on full range speakers.
For what it’s worth the compression warble I was describing on my MP3 is subtle. It’s not something that would affect timing the way someone described. It’s almost like the kind of artifact you hear on an early generation digital effect. Without A/B comparisons it’s hard to for me to even identify it.
I am curious, anyone have an idea why it wouldn’t let me upload a 2.2 MB file? I have seen larger on the forums. I just tried it again and still no workie.
haha, if you double click that track at kompoz it will play two on top of each other. I was Like What? now it’s happening to me? Must be the guitar players fault…
Okay, ready for another round? Latest upload has new banjo track, new 4th verse vocals and new 5th verse baritone.
Dave, your first banjo track was some nice playing, but I agree, the second is a cut above. I was only evaluating the sound reproduction.
Jesse, I tried moving the intro, but it seemed like it made things even more confusing. I’m still trying to get it to work.
I agree, Mike, that mp3 warble is subtle. When I first converted Can’t You See to mp3, I was really bummed with how the guitar sounded because I was so deeply involved with the project, but when I went back to it earlier today, it actually didn’t sound so bad to me.
I’m not sure about your file upload issue. I’ve never had that particular problem.
I appreciate your taking time to give me some feedback on those tracks Larry. When your inside them its hard to tell whats what sometimes.
I really like your banjo on the 2nd track Dave, in time, sounds good, nice tone. Gotta say you did a damn good job across the board with this. Now don’t let it give you a big head as at the end of the day I am still a guitar guy and you choose to play that hubcap with strings and we gotta keep the tradition going just outta spite, so it’s not like I like the sound of a banjer or anything!
Track sounds good Larry, whatever my problem was has gone away. I even downloaded it yesterday and it was bad…all good now.
So you want me to through in a G lick on this dude? Isn’t Ron working on his part? Still have yet to see him show up on this thread, is he around? Reason I say this is that he can add that in if he wants and some other guitar fills. If he does not want to then I can add in some fills and the lick…can add in the lick at the end of the song and embellish it a bit…if it’s gonna be a tribute to the “Glick” then I say we say that in harmony, do individual G licks on each instrument, then all of us strum a G chord to end it.
Oh, I also have an original bluegrass and a folk tune that could use some accompaniment in the future!
Wow. Nice job guys. It just keeps getting better. Sounds better overall start to finish. Nice job Larry. Nice banjer track Dave. I really like the rolls near the end of the solo where it goes back and forth from F to C (I think that’s the chords… I didn’t play it). As Ron Burgundy might say, it’s just classy.
Do you have harmonies recorded for the verse of “The sun is gonna shine?” If so, throwing them in with the second line of the verse (and possibly the third/last) just seems like it would fit with the words, and it would also add a little variety around the midpoint… I know… I’m sounding like an armchair quarterback… “get off the sofa and record something…”, “great idea Mike, let us know when you have it done.” 
Thanks for the sideways compliment Jesse…I have a guitar I keep in its case (where they belong)…hehe
Yeah, Dave’s banjo work is pretty good. I like the popcorn under Jesse’s guitar break. Actually, both you guys produce some pretty nice tracks. You push me to do better. This whole project is a little musical classroom for me.
Ron is working on his lead break. He’s not real sure if his recording setup can keep up, though. I suggested he just get as clean a take as possible and we’ll see how it sounds.
Jesse, I stuck a stealth mando G-lick at the very end of the song last night. Glad your playback is smoother now. Wonder what was up with that? I listened to your intro several times with the headphones last night, and it seems to me like there is a small volume decrease midway through. I’ll try to smooth that out on the next mix.
Mike, I’m not sure we’ve reach a consensus on whether we’re adding more harmony or not.
I’ll check on your stealth lick.
Yes the popcorn under my break sounds good, gives those extra beats in there that makes it appear to ones ear that I am doing more than I am doing.
On the Harmony:
We can put it there if you guys want. When it comes to tracks and such I have pretty much been doing mine in less than 5 takes, was just trying to keep it simple. All of my stuff could sound "better’ if you guys want. My thoughts on not re-doing stuff was to keep it simple on you Larry, you are doing a lot more work and I hate to over-burden you with stuff and re-takes. But if you want to have this as a “show-piece” then by all means lets:
Re- do some harmonies and add in harmonies on the last phrase of each solo verse.
I can clean up my break a lot.
I can clean up my solo verse a lot.
I can add in guitar fills.
I can do all that stuff if you guys want as I am either/or as I am not the one doing all the leg work. So it’s according to what you guys want the song to sound like as I already feel that it is better than I ever anticipated or expected. Both of you impressed the hell out of me with not only playing but your singing and your ability to record, edit, etc…was really surprised.
On Ron:
If he can not come up with with good sound but really likes his break and wants to add it in then he can send me the recording and I will do it on guitar for him so to at least let him have his composition of a break in there.
Oldhat
I’m getting the same urge to re-record my parts as the song takes shape, too, Jesse. When I did my mandolin break, I was really just winging it. I sat down and jammed over the entire song for a couple of nights, getting ideas about licks or notes I’d like to hit, then I looped the recorder through the break section, recorded my playing for 4 or 5 loops and took the one I liked the best. Having listened to the Dead play this song about a thousand times, I felt like it needed that loose improvisational feel, but now I’m thinking I should have taken the time to work out a break note for note.
I just don’t want to get too bogged down with it, though. Do-overs can be never-ending, and at some point, we’ll have to let it go and move on to new projects.
Maybe you took me wrong. I really have no urge to re-do much…could it better heck yeah; I could clean up my break from the buzzing notes, add in those strums I like doing in a break that somehow fell out/sound out of tune? I could fix my harmony and my lead vocals, could add in some licks, etc…but to me it all is “good enough” (well outside of adding in Ron’s stuff and maybe "trivial other things).
So what I was getting at in my idea of re-doing was that if you guys for some reason other then “making music” want it to sound better then I can make my parts sound a lot better. I guess I am trying to say "hey guys if any of you are considering using this demo as part of a resume to either teach, offer up mixing services or as a promo then by goldy let me know and I’ll clean up my parts and get them to you so they sound better!
I like your break I think my break is pretty punchy and to the point. I guess my break is a “happy uplifting break” in what is really supposed to be a depressing song, song has been kicked around to be about potential suicide, maybe jail time? but then again it refers to the “headlight” verse as setting a new path and maybe a new beginning. So I came up with a more “up-beat” lead to offset the songs lyrics or meaning. I thought my break ended up coming in a good spot after that 1st verse we done. Then comes in Dave’s verse and his lead…sad verse, upbeat lead. Then your verse (sad) then your lead that was “wandering” more off the melody and making it sound more sad…then bang I come in with a hard hitting vocal to pull it back up to the “happy” side, after all I was singing the only happy verse!
So about the leads rhythm and the way I personally went about them and the song over-all…dude we were singing a sad ass song at 250 bpm! The leads kept it there (punchy and sad/wandering) the vocals emphasized it and damn it we made a sad song happy…mission accomplished as that is what happened in the last solo verse of the song…the days or the desire to change ones ways (headlight in a pouring rain). So we got it, we performed our leads, vocals and breaks perfectly in my mind/ my interpretation…Now it will be interesting where Ron takes his break to…sad, happy, wandering?
Song supposedly came from a black lady either as a slave or in prison, damn it we made it happy…listener has to be saying …"Man those guys just had me stomping my foot and having a ball to a really “lyrically dark song”. I mean if you can’t hear field workers, slaves, or prisoners calling cadence in this song then one has missed it…this is a “field workers”, slave, or prisoners "cadence call.
Or maybe I am just ramblin?
Then just maybe if we keep doing our parts over we will sound “canned also”…if we want that “live feel” then it’s perfect with the mistakes and such.
Okay, you convinced me… I won’t redo my mando break. Thanks for helping me with my obsessive/compulsive disorder.
I had two purposes in doing this project: fellowship with other pickers and becoming a better musician. Mission accomplished on both fronts. I’ve learned a LOT about harmony singing and audio mixing working with you guys. And you, too, Mike, on the mixing part.
Sad songs played in cheerful upbeat tempos seem to have a long tradition in bluegrass… Footprints In The Snow, White House Blues etc. Seems like the emotion of the lyrics and the emotion of the music are distinct from each other quite a bit. I think overall our parts mesh together pretty well and do the song justice.
My mission:
My father used to do this song, drove me crazy with that damn banjo growing up…drove the entire family crazy…over and over and over…could have sworn it it was gonna lead to a divorce at one point and it wasn’t from him playing music but instead that loud ass banjo playing over and over the same lines. So this song was kind of the way he used to do it but a little more up-beat. A tribute to him from me I guess that I have come back around bluegrass and see what he obsessed about when the rest of us in the family was begging for him to take up playing the “air banjo”.
Second thing:
I’ve been suspecting that I could probably sound “decent” with recorded tracks and other musicians on about the same level or above if we recorded it and had the time to make some real attempt to do so. And after this I have been convinced that at least on “Rider” with one other person to take over the bass responsibilities that there is no doubt we 3 could entertain a group at a bluegrass festival. Are we “honed musicians”…nope but bet if we done what we done here on 100 different songs we could be! We can set here and learn Ben’s stuff or anyone’s stuff note for note and perfect it and we “would not be what I would consider " a musician”. Now with this said I think you need to spend 50% of your time learning in a method that Ben is teaching then the other 50% of the time you just got to grab a song and make your own lines, riffs, fills, and breaks up and discipline yourself enough to see it through…you do this combo and I think one can call themselves a “musician” in about a 2-3 year period (barring they have some theory under their belt, understand scales, etc before hand). And this proved to me that a good sound came out and it was entertaining…playing music is not about self-centered musicians flattering folks or “one upping” other musicians…it’s about entertaining the folks listening.
So those were my goals.
Dave I became obsessed with this song just like you mentioned…I had not really even heard it in years then I remembered my dad doing it and started strumming it and something about the was the rhythm/simple progression really pulled me into it…almost like a cool melody that folks come up with and you say “why the hell didn’t I think of that”…ahahha, well ti pulled me in, 3 simple chords and the melody, hell I could not play anything else without wanting to instead play this damn song over and over and over! SO I had to look into it more, hence putting a break together and setting what I thought was a good fast pace…and once we have nearly completed the song I feel that I understand it now.
Oldaht
The song is done pretty much like hundreds of other bands do it around the country. The pace was set by the intro and all else just followed. We could have done a sadder version at a lower tempo.
The seldom scene version is the “standard” version bluegrass pickers have followed to my knowledge. The biggest reasons most liked/learned it was because of the harmonies and the drive it has.
Ive been having fun and learned a lot, so I consider it a great success. It was fun to get the recorder out and get on Kompoz again, haven’t done it in a while and got to go back through some of the stuff Larry and I worked on before, which I enjoyed (Wow…blue Polly: the things that can happen there…haha)
thought as long as I referenced it I’d throw in a link to what started as a little acoustic number: little did Larry & I know…first is the mix:
kompoz.com/compose-collabora … ctId=29302
And here is what happened:
kompoz.com/compose-collabora … ctId=29302
