Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Netgrass Collaboration #2

#21

Well I am back, ready to do some playing, golf went good but I miss the guitar!

I’ll start digging into this song and see what I can come up with, that is unless another guitar player wants it? Is pretty slow tempo so someone may want to make their first stab at it on guitar since it is slower?

Dave you done a good job on Kompoz, hell that is just about ready to be mastered and done!

I done some searching through the Public Domain files and found some pretty decent “old songs” but nothing that really stood out…but will keep the list for any future reference. The one that stuck out the most was “Arkansas Traveler” and Ben had just done a mando part for gold pick members on it…and there are words to Arkansas Traveler of which I never knew.

Good structure on the way it is laid out Larry, who is gonna do what and where? Would sound really nice with a fiddle intro, lonely fiddle intro sets the mood nicely. Also would you set the breaks to the verse or the chorus?

Oldhat

#22

Hope you didn’t lose your callouses, oldhat! Guitar on this project looks like you and Ron. We could divide up rhythm and lead, or use two guitars. We’ve got three breaks plus the intro for instrumentals. We definitely need to save one of the breaks for Ben (whatever he ends up playing). On the reference video I uploaded, they solo over the second half of the chord progression only (like Dave’s intro). Is that how we want our breaks structured?

Dave, on your demo, I notice you stick in an extra bluegrass measure as you transition from the chorus to the first verse. Would you add that measure after each break?

#23

Larry,
the extra measure is a mistake; I was trying to remember the words and just kept going as it was only a reference to let you get an idea of the song.

   Fiddle or dobro would make a nice intro I think. I'm still trying to find time to get another song or two up but guess I'll just have to make it somewhere. Been awful busy of late with other things. 

   There is an "Outro" at the end also that is about like the intro. I'll have to go back and hear what I recorded 'cause I don't remember....haha.

    Can anyone check on the rights to this song? Being ET I'm thinking someone still owns it and we may have to write and get permission before we post it on soundclick. It's usually not hard to do I've obtained permission from J Garcia in the past for a song just by writing to avoid a festival having to pay ASCAP while they had a lawsuit going.
#24

I’ve been piddlin’ over Dave’s Kompoz track for the last 30 minutes or so and think since this is Dave’s song so-to-speak that we let you structure it Dave. Structure it in a sense of whether we simply take breaks over the verse and chorus or over the chorus, or over a verse.
I can see with as many instruments as we have that we could do breaks over the entire verse and chorus and simply split the breaks to add something to it. I think if you just solo over either the verse or the chorus that you may have to really focus on following the melody to keep it intact. We all know bluegrass loves an A and B part and even loves to break the A and B into 2 parts (part A that follows the melody the first time through and then lets the picker “jam” over the second part of part A) …so maybe a split-break may work…maybe not? But will leave that up to Dave, just adding a thought.

Dave I have no idea in how to see if something is copy written? Maybe Larry or Mike knows or someone else?

Oldhat

#25

Oh, and while we are at it I have a question:

What is your guys process for figuring out your breaks?

I simply listen to the song over and over and over and play and sing it over and over and over until I can hear the song in my head then start working on a break on what i hear in my head, is this the method you guys use?

Would be a great topic for discussion as most here are probably pretty close to the same level and if you’ve got another method or ideas about it then I’d appreciate it as I think part of not “falling apart” in a jam is hearing a verse and a chorus for the first time and then being able to remember the melody enough to take your break. Even though I’ve played guitar for years I still have to hear the song a lot in order to have the melody solidified in my head.

I took a lesson from Ben and he suggested that I practice this a lot (picking out melody lines) and I think this (collaboration) is a great way to force ones self to following through with doing it. I am sure that technique, learning old fiddle tunes, scales, and forcing yourself to come up with your own breaks are 4 pretty good practices to becoming a musician and not a hack.

Oldhat

#26

I did find some general information that suggested that recording the music would require permission.

Here’s some of the links I perused:
ehow.com/list_6799975_rules- … songs.html
indieguide.com/wiki/page/Cop … _and_Loops
boutell.com/newfaq/creating/musicrights.html

There are apparently three companies that have most rights. The link in the article only worked for BMI (the others are ASCAP and SESAC):
bmi.com/search/

It looks like BMI has the rights for YWEFM: here is the page for it:
repertoire.bmi.com/title.asp?bln … ype=WorkID

The composers were Snapp Louis and Ernest.

I’m not sure where to go from here. I suspect they will want 25% of the revenue. I think we could offer 100%. It may be as easy as an email saying what we are doing. It may be much more complicated, but I guess BMI would be a good start.

#27

EEEEK!
The following is regarding streaming licensing, but still it makes me think it might not be free:

“BMI’s licensing is substantially simpler and more affordable than the other two. The minimum fee, currently $295 as of this writing, is all you will owe if your annual revenue is under $15,000. If your revenue exceeds $15,000 you still have very reasonable options with BMI, and recordkeeping is also much simpler. These terms are excellent and BMI should be applauded for making the process far less painful. In fact, I recommend the use of BMI music on your website (with the appropriate license, of course).”

#28

I am not saying that one should violate copyright laws. Seriously, I don’t do things like rip CDs for people… artists make music for a living and I don’t want to give away their work. With that said, I have recorded many covers for personal use over the years. I don’t think the publishers would care if they knew, but since it wasn’t for distribution, they never knew.

In case anyone who would care is reading this, I have destroyed all personal recordings I have made of myself playing other’s copyrighted material. The old cassettes from my fostex are still smoldering, but they are totally unusable at this point.

Now that I have that out of the way, I think the sticking point on picking copyrighted material is sharing it publicly. If someone were inclined to record but not publish (via soundclick), one of the private data storage websites would be a good common share for wavs. In other words, just use a private web storage site in place of Kompoz.

#29

Mike, I’m sending the copyright police to your house. I’ve heard rumors that you recorded yourself playing Leaning On The Everlasting Arms. :smiley:

Copyright laws sure are a confusing and sometimes contradictory mess. I think you are right that we could just keep our recording private and no one is going to care, but a lot of the fun is sharing the results. I have a few covers up on my Soundclick page, but they are old songs that probably aren’t big money makers. If I were to post my latest cover of Justin Bieber (I sound just like him - you would love it), I imagine it would get more attention from the publishing houses.

I suspect the worst that would happen if we uploaded a copyrighted song to Soundclick is that we would be asked to remove it and our netgrass account would be flagged, but if we want to play it safe and do a public domain song that’s fine with me, too. I was just trying to gain some momentum for our project by starting on the ET song.

Oldhat, I figure out breaks in one of two ways. The first is like you describe: learn the melody really well, then try to play what I hear in my head. This is definitely the best way for me during impromptu jamming. The second way is to tab out the basic melody, then go to work building licks around those quarter and half note pauses, and finally learning the break after I’ve written it out. Working this way gets me out of using my standard licks and usually creates a more interesting break, but requires more effort.

#30

I just think we should give a fake last name (Chinese) and not worry about the laws!

Wow Larry, my 13 and 8 year old daughters “so” want me to learn some of her (Justin Biebers) stuff but I can’t hit the high sopranos like she (JB) does…can’t believe you didn’t do a Soprano on “Rider” since you can sing like her (JB). :laughing:

#31

One thing we know about You Won’t Ever Forget Me is that it’s okay on Youtube. The video I linked on this thread has been on Youtube for 2 years. Plus, the original ET version is there as well.

I couldn’t find the song on Soundclick. but other ET songs are there. This guy has over 60 covers uploaded, including Walking The Floor Over You, and I’m thinking he didn’t get a license for each one. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=659502&content=music&songcount=62&offset=0&currentPage=2

#32

For what it’s worth, I think YWEFM is a fine choice. We had an orphaned baby bird end up in our care. Little Dude or “LD” is in soft release mode… basically he’s outside doing birdy things all day, but I still go out to feed him. Anyway, he’ll soon be off with his bird friends. I caught myself singing the chorus of YWEFM to him. LD gave it two claws up.
[attachment=0]LittleDude.jpg[/attachment]

#33

Thanks Mike, glad LD approves…hehe

Anyone have any thoughts on the length of the song? I can arrange it any number of ways to make it come out different lengths. Since we’re not worried about radio play it’s kind of wide open really.

If we do this song I may not take a banjo break. haven’t thought on it much yet.

#34

— Begin quote from "Oldhat"

Oh, and while we are at it I have a question:

What is your guys process for figuring out your breaks?
Oldhat

— End quote

You might want to check out this thread:

https://banjoebenclark.com/forum/t/inventing-breaks/184/1

#35

Mike look up “Bird In A House” by Railroad Earth on youtube and let the bird hear it, probably a fitting song and by one of my more “favorite” bands.

Dave:

As far as length, 4 minutes should be around the length to me. After-all it’s bluegrass and whenever you put in breaks which are expected that tends to tip well over the 3 minute mark so I think bluegrass is expected to be drug out a bit.

#36

I was thinking around that too just wanted some opinions. four minutes is a long time to hold a solid rhythm guitar. that’s probably my main concern.

On another note, I have the ability to keep this project private on kompoz if we want (I have two freebie private projects due me via my $5/month I pay). I’ll leave that up to a vote by you guys.

#37

LD is a cool looking bird. Do you know what kind he is?

— Begin quote from "fiddlewood"

Anyone have any thoughts on the length of the song? I can arrange it any number of ways to make it come out different lengths. Since we’re not worried about radio play it’s kind of wide open really.

— End quote

I was asking all the questions about song structure because I was planning on laying down a base track, but there’s no reason you can’t do it, Dave. It does give me more flexibility with song construction if it’s played with a metronome, though. If we don’t speed up or slow down during the song, the individual parts each of us submit remain interchangeable (plus, I have a lot easier time navigating the project).

As far as using Kompoz to host a private project, I think it would be fine unless it required everyone involved with the project to pay $5. (My objection is due to my own miserliness as well my desire to get as many people as possible to join us.)

#38

The only difference in a private project is the participants must be invited and it only shows to them. I just don’t really care for the idea of excluding people in public much, and I am thinking there are going to be several “joiners” from the kompoz site on this one. I’m fine with it either way.

don’t understand the comment about metronome. I would think everyone would use one to lay a base track.

Go ahead and cut the track Larry. I’m a bit crimped for time as it is, and hands are quite sore/swollen from running chainsaws the last couple weeks. just remember there are three verses…

#39

— Begin quote from ____

don’t understand the comment about metronome. I would think everyone would use one to lay a base track.

— End quote

I imagine with your sense of timing, you could lay down a track without a metronome that would sound just fine. I think slight variations in tempo can add energy/emotion to a song (especially live performances), but they make multi-tracking more difficult.

I’m only finding two verses, whatcha got for lyrics?

#40

I always run a “time track” when recording something.

I mentioned in my ofrmer post that I only did a short version so you could hear what it sounded like.

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