Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Netgrass Collaboration #2

#181

— Begin quote from "fiddlewood"

Thought Larry’s voice could come up a bit in your last mix Mike.

— End quote

I agree. I mixed the backing vocals together in a separate project with just the 3 vocal parts. When I dumped to a wav, I left out the lead vocals so they have their own track in the main. Larry’s voice was more prominent in the separate project, but it gets a little lost in the mix. I’ll bump it up in the next mix. FWIW, I brought the lead vox up in this one as it was starting to lose center stage with the additional tracks.
I agree too on consolidating the breaks. That’s what I was planning on doing. All said, 8 tracks is a ton to work with. Especially since it’s digital and I’m not adding noise every time I ping pong the tracks. When I was a teen, we used to make demos on a fostex 4 track cassette… that was a different world, but we still came up with serviceable sounding recordings. Now I feel spoiled with even the most basic tools available.

#182

I can relate. I used to have a MCI 1" reel to reel 8 track in my studio I had in the pole barn. things sure have changed…

#183

If it means anything I am killing myself with coming up with a harmony part…can’t even sing the lead now I’ve got myself so messed up! At the end of the day it’s a great exercise for me to keep banging my head on and use it as a learning process.

#184

I’m glad I"m not the only one having harmony troubles, Jesse. I don’t feel so lonesome. I’m still not too satisfied with my vocal track. Now, that I know I’m in the right range, I may try to re-do it.

I still have my 20+ year old Tascam 424 Portastudio cassette 4 track, too. I was just looking on Ebay the other day to see if it’s worth anything and apparently there is still a market for such things. I was thinking I might as well sell it, as I can’t imagine ever using it to record now that we’re digital.

Been working on mando this afternoon. I think if I just lay off the one beat a little, it provides more breathing room for the mix.

#185

I figured out the easiest way to stop the conflict between the mando and rhythm guitar was to turn down the guitar :laughing: Problem solved!

I did redo my mando track, but only on the ending where I tried to mimick the banjo a little more closely.

I took all the raw tracks and did a remix with my reworked mando and ozi’s new bass line: http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=212752&projectId=33855

It’s coming together nicely.

#186

yep, got the rhythm buried good now. Tenor too it sounds like. I think the mando rhythm is just a tad too loud…it is challenging the banjo for backing up the vocals, drowning out guitar and I’m not sure what is burying the tenor harmony.

Larry are you running effects on your voice track? For some reason the volume seems loud but words or notes seem to disappear here and there, sounds like it could possibly be a bit crispier/drier?

For some reason, things seem to be out of time with each other on this mix as opposed to the last one Mike did. Not exactly sure what is happening, maybe my imagination.

Bass seems to have a better tone to it and played a bit cleaner this time. :smiley: Sounds like something is rattling against something else on the sep. track. Not sure if this is a pick-up sound, strings vibrating against frets, or what. If it was a mandolin track I’d say the tailpiece cover was loose just to give a description of what I’m hearing. It seems to get buried when mixed with other tracks so I don’t see it as a big problem, just thought ozi would be interested.

#187

“Yooouuu won’t ever forget me, no matter how hard you try…”

Haha! That’s stuck in my head, I love it.

Great job so far guys. I’m really diggin’ that mando break.

#188

Just re-listened to my mix. I was working with a low-volume mixing situation last night with wifey sleeping.

I agree that the mando is a little hot. And, I did pull out my full arsenal of mixing tricks, including fattening up the lead vocal a little. Interesting that you prefer it drier, fiddlewood. I think I am the exact opposite. I disliked how flat your voice was in the mix (not flat pitchwise, but how it lay in the mix). It seemed like it needed more presence to me, especially coming off the full sound of the harmony singing.

I think the tenor did get lost a bit in the mix, too. I first took the tenor and baritone and mixed them acapella before adding the melody to the mix. It sounds pretty nice acapella, but when I dumped the voices into the mix it seems like the tenor got lost a bit.

#189

When I listened to your mix, I liked how you put that tag ("And when it’s too late…) in at the end of the last chorus. I went and looked and for whatever reason when I brought the clip in, it wasn’t fully expanded (thus eliminating the tag). I had noticed it doing that at the beginning of the clips, but not the end.
I have another mix going with the new bass and mando tracks. The harmony vocals are pretty touchy… it seems like they are very sensitive to other things going on. I have re-tweaked them and will listen and might tweak some more later. I’ll post it later on.

#190

— Begin quote from "TNTaylor414"

“Yooouuu won’t ever forget me, no matter how hard you try…”

Haha! That’s stuck in my head, I love it.

— End quote

The same thing happened to me Shawn. I got it stuck in my head while I was raising an orphaned bird we named “Little Dude”. I knew she’d fly away some day and go be a bird. While she was released but still hanging around to be fed, I would sing the song to her. My wife wants to put together a little video of the bird. I think these guys are putting together the perfect backing track for the vid.

#191

Man, I’m glad you said that about the ending, Mike. I thought I was going crazy. I was trying to figure out when Dave updated his vocal track.

Here’s a do-over mix with Dave’s suggestions taken into account.

http://www.kompoz.com/compose-collaborate/home.track.project?trackId=212826&projectId=33855

We’ve got dueling mixes going now. It will be interesting to see where we each wind up and how we get there.

#192

I’ve been messing around with dobro some this afternoon, and I think (if Ben can’t get to us on this project) that I might be able to pull off a dobro track. I haven’t done any dobro recording since I switched from a flatpick to fingerpicks, but when I use my handy new dobro capo, it doesn’t seem too difficult. I think I’ll try to write a break tonight, just to have as a back up.

#193

— Begin quote from "ldpayton"

. Interesting that you prefer it drier, fiddlewood. I think I am the exact opposite. I disliked how flat your voice was in the mix … It seemed like it needed more presence to me, especially coming off the full sound of the harmony singing.

— End quote

Most effects take away from presence. Sometimes an exciter can bring something out a bit more but generally if I want more presence in a voice I will raise the volume or kick it up at about 1K on the EQ. The best effects in my opinion are the ones you can’t tell are there being used. The voices in the last mix sound to me like they are echoing through a VFW hall from a PA that already has the reverb turned up too high on it.

I think this detracts from the sound because it sounds like someone is trying to cover up mistakes with effects. I’ve watched electric musicians do this for years and it just happens to be one of my pet peeves. No big deal.

#194

— Begin quote from ____

“Yooouuu won’t ever forget me, no matter how hard you try…”

Haha! That’s stuck in my head, I love it.

— End quote

Same here. I’m glad you blokes sing in tune or this could become an ongoing nightmare :laughing:

#195

— Begin quote from "ozicaveman"

— Begin quote from ____

“Yooouuu won’t ever forget me, no matter how hard you try…”

Haha! That’s stuck in my head

— End quote

Same here. I’m glad you blokes sing in tune or this could become an ongoing nightmare :laughing:

— End quote

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

#196

I’ll give some input, hope I don’t p-off anyone in the process:

First, you will more than likely not get a 4th part of harmony from me with the current way the harmonies are done. I mean the 4th guy that gets to do a harmony has to pick the notes that the others are not using and as far as I can tell these harmonies are all over the map. Do you realize how hard that is for the 4th person to analyze the other 3 voices and pick the notes pick the notes others are not using over this I mean give the 4th guy some respect man, at least send me a chart of what notes you used in your harmony verses me having to figure them out on my own over 3 voices? And is there really harmony going on here or “doubling” where their is lead singing up a third/5th or down the same intervals? But it sure does not sound like harmonizing to me.

Mike, I hate to say it brother and I hope I don’t offend you, but there are parts of yours that for lack of better terms need to be done again. I mean they stick out so obvious in being off the note that it’s offensive to the ear. And is that really your voice?

Now I can’t sing can’t play that well and do not claim to be a know-it-all on harmony, but Fiddlewood does seem to have a good grasp of harmony and maybe he can help give us all an education and step up and coach us a bit.

I am here to learn and if something I done/was doing or sounded bad I’d hope that you guys would say “damn Jesse that sounds like crap”…I’m not one of those PC folks that think everyone deserves a “star” or trophy for their efforts, but instead will say “Well that was a good attempt but it doesn’t sound right” so now let’s see what we can do for both of us to learn how to make it sound right!

Just my $0.02 worth fellas.

#197

:smiley: , yes four part makes it harder to find a different part unless you go down to a bass part, or sing an octave to someone else. If you listen to most Bluegrass recordings you’ll find 3 part or duets unless it is Gospel, then the quartet will traditionally come about using a Bass.

Mike is singing a straight 3rd above the lead exactly where it is supposed to be. In my estimation it was clean, clear, and in tune as much as possible considering the lead he was singing to. I’m guessing Mike either has a soft voice or is singing falsetto to be able to hit the higher part clearly and in tune (I do this a lot when the parts are quite high and I have several sets to play.) either way I thought it had a nice timbre to it and was done rather well overall.

Larry’s last attempt at 3rd below is quite close. there are a few of the higher notes that are slightly low or out of tune but they are the same notes that are more quiet than the rest. It is a hard part for most to learn as it is the one that doesn’t actually follow the melody, but instead makes the triads to turn the notes into chords.

My lead is on the lead (not jumping parts), although I will admit to a few slightly out of tune notes, a few not held the correct length, a few words that could have been sung more cleanly, and not much of a lead voice to begin with.

The next part above would be one Octave above Larry. (high bari/5th above lead)
the next part below would be one octave below Mike. (low Tenor/5th below Lead)

If you would like me to actually write out the harmony parts I could, but it would take quite a while as I’d have to figure it all out form scratch and enter it into tabledit.

Sorry you spent so much effort only to be frustrated - been there.

i will add that these rough mixes aren’t helping the vocals sound great either. When things are not balanced correctly they don’t sound right and sometimes it’s hard to identify the problem.

#198

Okay, I’m probably using the term, presence, incorrectly. To me, without any effects, the lead sounds thin - or, like the sonic space it occupies is too narrow. I’d say it’s transistor radio-like. With the effects, I feel more like I’m in the room with you.

The harmony parts are virtually effect free, just a touch of reverb, but I’ll start scaling back on the lead effects on subsequent mixes and see if we can reach a compromise. :smiley:

As far as my harmony part goes, I realize it isn’t quite right. I intend to do a retake, but no promises on the results. If someone else wants to take a stab at it, feel free to jump in.

#199

Tabbing the harmony notes is a pretty good idea, I think. I believe it might be a good exercise for me. I’ll tab out Mike and Dave’s lines, and see what’s left for me.

#200

haha, glad you came up with a quick response fiddle, I appreciate it.

I guess what i was trying to say is that three part harmony when you count yours as the lead as one is that the 4th one that decides to jump in really kind of “gets the shaft” in figuring out where he should be singing at, or at least what notes…my guess is that “folk and bluegrass” musicians figured out a long time ago about 4 part harmony and said “the hell with that it takes too much planning and I wanna pick”…as 4 part takes planning and the 4th part where ever it is decided to step in at has to coordinate notes with the harmony singer on his side of the lead (with 4 there is ultimately going to be 2 on one side of the lead) and they need to agree upon what notes are where.

Now a few questions:

To ones “ear” in harmony can they really tell when two share the same notes when they are on an off beat?

What is wrong with singing a straight 3rd or 5th above the lead and then following identical intervals when possible? Is this “doubling” or is this harmony?

When one sings harmony and has no place to go with the next note, can you simply hold that note you are on until you get a chance to get off it or something else becomes available?

I was thinking that just adding in an octave below you with a bass would be the way to go but I think Larry hits a lot of those bass notes in his singing and they’d only stack on top of each other.

Teach us more about harmony Dave, I am all ears…since you appear to sing a bit how about taking the time to throw up a few individual tracks of you singing harmony parts so we can listen to them?