Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Relief and Setup

#41

— Begin quote from "mswhat"

So I should feel some resistance, just not to the point where it feels like one more turn and the thing will blow up?

— End quote

Yep, there should be some resistance, and it’s significant resistance as we are tightening the rod enough to straighten the neck. So resistance is expected, but if you notice a sudden increase in the resistance, that’s an indication the nut may be out of threads.

So if there was little tension to begin, it sounds like the rod was pretty loose. That would make sense if you didn’t see much change. If so, you will probably have a few more cycles of adjust/check before you get close to where you want it. BTW, I think you are already aware of this, but you can make more than one cycle of adjust/check in a sitting.

#42

— Begin quote from "mreisz"

Yep, there should be some resistance, and it’s significant resistance as we are tightening the rod enough to straighten the neck. So resistance is expected, but if you notice a sudden increase in the resistance, that’s an indication the nut may be out of threads.

So if there was little tension to begin, it sounds like the rod was pretty loose. That would make sense if you didn’t see much change. If so, you will probably have a few more cycles of adjust/check before you get close to where you want it. BTW, I think you are already aware of this, but you can make more than one cycle of adjust/check in a sitting.

— End quote

Well Mike, I think we may be making progress!! I sat down again tonight, loosened up the strings and gave the rod a 1/8 turn. The resistance was stronger but now I see that it’s supposed to be. I guess the nut was just really loose.

When I re-tuned I was happy to see that the playing was already better. The muting I had experienced before on bar chords was MUCH better but still not quite where I wanted it.

So I de-tuned again, gave it a very cautious and slow 1/8 crank and tried again. Better and I’ll give it a closer look this weekend and post some new measurements and a relief check.

In total, I guess I’ve tightened about 3 1/8 turns, maybe a little over that. I don’t think I’ve gone quite to 1/2 turn but I may have. In any event, I’m interested to see how it’ll play with new strings. Got some new ones I’m gonna put on when we’re done with this.

The saga continues…but there’s light! Thanks!

Mike

#43

That’s good news. Glad to hear it. By the way, you can ignore my concern about getting to a 1/2 turn with nothing happening. It sounds like it is acting like a normal truss rod now.

My neighbor broke her hand, so she isn’t going to be playing guitar for a bit. While she is out of commission, I am going to do a setup and cleaning on her guitar. It’s pretty interesting in that it’s a relatively inexpensive Yamaha but it seems to have pretty nice potential. I’ll be interested to see what we can do with it. Here’s my notes from measuring (I haven’t changed anything yet):

Before:
Low E 12th fret: 7.5 / 64
High E 12th fret: 5.5 / 64
Relief: Very little. Less than .002” 5th through 9th
Low E height over first fret in excess of .035”
Height over low E first fret when fretted at 3: .010”
High E height over first fret .020”
Height over high E first fret when fretted at 3: .006”
Height of saddle over bridge between D and G 9/64”, 10/64 at low E
Intonation good. Slightly sharp on low E, A, B: slightly flat on D, G
Slight fret buzz on lower frets, especially B and high E
Minor fret wear on B and E around 2rd and 3rd frets.
Neck angle good: finger board extension hits just below top of bridge (1/32”?)
Strings are old and dead.

General impression: a decent playing and sounding guitar. Action is generally a little stiff, the sound is surprisingly loud, but not real clear (not much definition when playing chords) and a bit boxy.

#44

— Begin quote from "mreisz"

General impression: a decent playing and sounding guitar. Action is generally a little stiff, the sound is surprisingly loud, but not real clear (not much definition when playing chords) and a bit boxy.

— End quote

So how’d it go with old Yamaha? I have an old Yamaha from around 1979-80. I got it when I was kid taking lessons and it sounds nice…it’s got a distinct sound when the strings are in good shape.

#45

I hope this thread has been, or will be, of use to others. It’s been a tremendous help to me…thanks to Mike and others for the valuable info! I just about have the old WD10S up to snuff. But I’m still diggin’ the lesser WD7.

Mikke

#46

Hey Mike,
I think that the Yamaha came out nice. I got a new string height measuring device from StewMac and measuring with it, the low E was 8/64ths at the 12th fret to start and 6.5/64ths when it was done. It was a world of difference. I set the nut action, and lowered the saddle a smidge. For my playing style, I don’t think I could get the action much lower without some fret work. She plays pretty light, so I could have gone bit lower, but she is happy with it as it sits. I ended up with the relief about where it started, maybe a hair more. I tweaked the shape of the saddle to compensate the B string a little. It is still a loud guitar and it seems to be clearer and have less of a boxy sound, but I would attribute the improved sound to new strings. Overall, it’s a great playing and sounding guitar.

#47

— Begin quote from "mreisz"

Hey Mike,
I think that the Yamaha came out nice. I got a new string height measuring device from StewMac and measuring with it, the low E was 8/64ths at the 12th fret to start and 6.5/64ths when it was done. It was a world of difference. I set the nut action, and lowered the saddle a smidge. For my playing style, I don’t think I could get the action much lower without some fret work. She plays pretty light, so I could have gone bit lower, but she is happy with it as it sits. I ended up with the relief about where it started, maybe a hair more. I tweaked the shape of the saddle to compensate the B string a little. It is still a loud guitar and it seems to be clearer and have less of a boxy sound, but I would attribute the improved sound to new strings. Overall, it’s a great playing and sounding guitar.

— End quote

You are well on your way to a seasoned pro setup guy!! Sounds like a nice job for the Yamaha.

I am playing at a get together at my church in Nov and (not bluegrass, just praise and worship and a hymn or two) and I hope to have both guitars fine tuned by then. If I had to go today I’d still opt for the WD7 over the one we’ve been working with but then again I’m not done with it yet. So we’ll see.

#48

Thanks for the kind words, but I am far from a seasoned pro setup guy :slight_smile:
I’m just happy to be able help make my neighbor’s guitar more enjoyable for her. It does seem that I am getting more and more instruments landing at my doorstep. In addition to the aforementioned guitar, just in the last month or so, I had the following: When I was visiting my in-laws I strung and cleaned up 4 guitars and in return I got sent home with a ukulele needing it’s top re-glued and a future request to replace the binding on a Gibson J-40 (that will take a while). Another friend brought over a no-name guitar that had been sitting in an attic for a while to see if it could be made playable again (believe it or not, on initial inspection it looks structurally sound). Another friend brought over his new D-18 he had a pro setup done that was buzzing (thankfully it was just the truss rod had settled into negative relief, it was probably fine when it left the shop). All this “business” probably has less to do with the results and more to do with the fact I don’t charge anything. I think I’ll double my rates.

#49

The weather finally broke here in north Florida, and with the humidity drop, I had to adjust the truss rod on my guitar again. I never noticed such a change in relief with any of my other guitars, but I’m not sure if that’s just because I’m playing more, or if it’s because some guitars are more suseptible to weather changes.

#50

— Begin quote from "ldpayton"

The weather finally broke here in north Florida, and with the humidity drop, I had to adjust the truss rod on my guitar again. I never noticed such a change in relief with any of my other guitars, but I’m not sure if that’s just because I’m playing more, or if it’s because some guitars are more suseptible to weather changes.

— End quote

I have a drastic change in my Washburn WD10S if the humidity changes. That’s why I’m so happy I can do a minor adjustment here or there if needed. Thanks to Mike and others on here, I feel pretty good about making a few small changes.

Mike

#51

I see some change with the weather, but I try to keep it mitigated. Once the humidity drops much in the fall, I get out the humidifier. In the summer, I seem to average around 42%, so I just leave it alone. Once the temps cool and the heat comes on, I’ll typically be in the low 30s if I don’t do something about it. Even with me keeping the humidity pretty consistent, I still have to tweak some going from summer to winter.

If you see an unusual change in action it could well be just the environment. Larry, I think your guitar is pretty new, and as I understand it, guitars are going to change more due to humidity in their early years. I would guess all is well and I don’t want to be an alarmist, but it might be worth a look at the bracing to make sure all is solid. You can get a good feel for it by looking at (and sometimes tapping) the top around and below the bridge area, but if you have a mirror and a flashlight, you can see drastic issues pretty well looking through the soundhole. My OM-18 is a guitar that I really like. When I put mediums on it, I was shocked by the difference in tone (it LOVED it). However, after a while I noticed that the action had crept up a little over time from the initial change to medium gauge strings. Looking at the top, it showed more of a belly than I am used to seeing. I looked inside and there were no loose braces. I got a second opinion from a luthier… all was well. I went back to lights on that guitar and the top settled back to a “normal” look. The reason I bring it up, is sometimes a particular guitar just has more give to the top than others. I suspect it might follow that some just react to changes in the environment more.

#52

Thanks for the feedback guys. I checked out my bracing as much as possible. Even loosened the strings and got my hand inside the soundhole. Everything seems solid to me, so I don’t think I have a serious problem.

The humidity here in Florida runs over over 50% in summer and in the high 30’s in the winter, so I don’t have to deal with the low humidity that some of you all have, but I still suspect the weather is causing the changes in my guitar. At the start of summer I had to add some relief to stop fret buzzing and played problem free all summer. Then, last week I started noticing that my playing, especially on chords, didn’t sound clean. I started by blaming my technique and focused on playing cleaner. When that didn’t fix things, I figured maybe I needed to dress my calluses a little. When that failed, I finally noticed, just by eyeballing, that I had a huge amount of relief. It had crept up so slowly, I hadn’t even recognized it.

The good news is that, in additon to sounding better, my guitar plays a lot better now. It was easier for me to notice the problem of too little relief, rather than too much relief, but both caused my sound to suffer.

#53

Good deal!

#54

What is the purpose for slotting the bridge? Is it just so you can add unslotted bridge pins, or does it create more break angle over the saddle? Heard of a few people doing it, never asked why.

I like the look of the “ebony” pins on the D18 but wasn’t aware they were plastic. Figured I might order some but I might as well get the unslotted ones and get the bridge reamed and slotted. Like 'em so much, I was gonna see what they looked/sounded like on the D28.

I wouldn’t think bridge pins would effect the sound that much, but in general, what kind of sound would you expect with real ebony pins?

#55

Hey Shawn,
The are multiple purposes for slotting the bridge and using solid pins. 1) If the action is high due to an incorrect neck angle, sometimes people reduce the saddle height and then slot the pin holes to regain some of the lost break angle (it does increase the break angle). 2) Some people think it sounds better due to increased transfer of energy to the bridge and plate. Many old guitars that sound great have solid pins and slotted holes. 3) Over time, the ball end of a string chews up the bridge plate and some think slotting prevents that.

I have replaced bridge pins on a guitar several times. I have never gone to solid pins. I noticed a clearly different tone in one instance, but that was going to bone and I also replaced the plastic saddle (with bone) at the same time. I replaced plastic pins with ebony on another guitar and couldn’t tell a decided difference. It might have been different, but I wasn’t positive. Some people will swear they can hear a huge difference.

One thing to note, when I recently replaced some plastic with ebony on my mother in law’s martin, the replacement ones from stew-mac were bigger than the plastic ones. They sat up about 1/8" higher. One could shave the pins or ream the holes, but I was not at my home and didn’t have my normal guitar tools. I need to get a ream and fix it at some point, but she liked them sticking out and all.

#56

Thanks Mike!

I’m seriously thinking about getting atleast my D18 slotted to see if I can hear a difference. Worst case scenario, it reduces wear on the bridge plate. Can I just turn the bridge pins around backwards instead of getting solid ones? I guess all reaming does is make the pins sit lower? Slotting alone (with the right size pins) will allow for solid pins, right?

I think I’m mistaking the lack of overtones in the D18 for sounding thin.

In your opinion Mike, do you think it’s worth it to have this done? What mods would you try? What do you think about replacing the compensated (tusq?) saddle for bone?

#57

Hey Shawn,
Here are some more things to dig through on slotting:
Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum Search
theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y … IQQz2871WI
And from Bryan Kimsey:
bryankimsey.com/bridges/slotted.htm

You can just turn the bridge pins around as well. Reaming does just make the pins sit lower. Slotting alone will allow for solid pins.

I have a sitka on mahogany OM18V. I initially liked the sound of it, but as I played it the sound really got better. It took some time. I suspect your 18 will open up as well. Some of that is going to happen as the wood ages, and some will come from playing it. It might well sound a bit thinner than your 28 at this point. Also, it’s a different tone. The bottom on your 18 is probably going to be tighter than on your 28. The highs will probably stronger and clearer. It does take some ear adjustment, but the guitar will also get stronger over time. It seems that Sitka breaks in quicker that Adi.

On slotting, I haven’t done any of mine, but there are many people who do like it. I am not opposed to it, I just haven’t felt compelled yet. Trying a bone saddle would be a reversible thing, and is worth a shot. If nothing else, if the tone turns out to be similar you could set one saddle up a bit lower for summer use. I bought a toneRite. It’s kind of a snake oil thing, but in my opinion it does help my guitars that have tightened up from inadequate use. I think it might help accelerate the opening up process for your 18, and it’s non invasive.

Here’s a pic:
[attachment=0]toneright.jpg[/attachment]

#58

Thanks for the help Mike! Definately a few things to think about.

Good looking OM18V! Are those snakewood buttons?

#59

It’s hard to tell with something to compare scale, but that’s not the OM, that’s a 0000 (adirondack on madagscar). I included the picture to show the ToneRite. Good eye on the tuners, those are snakewood Waverlys.

#60

— Begin quote from "TNTaylor414"

I’m seriously thinking about getting atleast my D18 slotted to see if I can hear a difference.

— End quote

My D18 is now slotted. While searching for a mystery noise on it, I noticed that my B string pin was a bit loose when seated. I had noted when I bought the guitar that the previous owner had apparently done a little work towards slotting it and either stopped short of slotting it altogether or had much lighter gauge strings (or maybe different pins). I ended up just needing to tweak the slots a little and the pins are flipped backwards.
As far as tone differences, I have been messing with my pick grip so my tone and my ear are totally out of whack (I basically went to a closed hand grip like in Bens pick speed video). With that said, I think it made the tone a bit better. The most describable difference is a sharper attack and tighter bass. The notes seem to “pop” a bit more percussively.

There is a much higher ramp angle on the lower strings and I am thinking I might ramp the slots on the G, B and high E strings to give it a bit more high end punch. Since I had my little saw out, I thought about going ahead and doing it, but I want to make the various changes incrementally to see what effect I could determine. The slots did seem to make a minor improvement, but again, my attack and ear are pretty out of whack.