Thanks for summing that up Michael. Watching this conversation was getting old…
Heartbreaking
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Lol we often have a tendency to go in circles don’t we? 
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@MicahE628 replied before I had time to, but I second everything he said. I think he hit the nail on the head.
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If you guys would like me to I can post a sermon here about our standing vs. our state before God.
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Hey Michael! I completely agree with you. Salvation is only through faith. I’m just saying that fruit will follow if someone is really walking with Jesus.
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I agree, thanks for clarifying. 
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Micah, isn’t that what they call “straw man argument”??
Wiki says, “A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be “attacking a straw man”.”
I know I have to lay the foundation first which is what I’m trying to do. It takes time but we will get there! 
Lets do something like this. Please quote whatever I said or implied and say how you differ if you don’t agree.
Issue/Question:…
John said/implied: …
Micah’s (or the reply-er) stand: …
Also I asked 4 questions. Or let us keep it simple. Let us start with these questions, the questions are to you or to Michael/Kevin/Harrison/others.
Question 1: Does one have to keep Jesus’ commandments to attain eternal salvation? Answer yes or no with explanation as necessary.
Question 2: If yes to question 1, is it possible to keep Jesus’ commandments without knowledge of Jesus’ commandments? Yes or no, with explanation as necessary.
Question 3: If knowledge of Jesus’ commandments is necessary to keep Jesus’ commandments, does church have the knowledge of Jesus’ commandments? Yes or no, with explanation as necessary.
Question 4: If yes to question 1, is it possible to keep Jesus’ commandments? If yes, how?
(Micah, on the one hand you say you need to keep Jesus’ commandment, on the other hand you agree with Michael who does not believe in keeping Jesus’ commandment as a requirement for eternal salvation. I’d like to know your stand.)
So guys, your turn!
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I must have missed where this happened. A straw man argument is arguing against something that the opponent didn’t actually say, but is very similar to something they said. Calling out logical fallacies is a good thing to do in a debate. It just helps to show what is being called out.
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Mark, maybe I did not understand Micah well enough. But the above scriptures are whatever I quoted earlier in this thread. When the very same things were slapped back on me, (or at least I got the impression, maybe it was a general remark for the benefit of everyone), I was wondering what he was trying to convey to me. Which is why I’m now simplifying my question and trying to get a pointed answer to avoid this spiral out of control.
So Micah, I apologize if you didn’t mean to do it the way, since Mark does not see any straw man in your post! Let us not get this in the way of our discussion.
Hey John, I was worried that it might be taken the wrong way. It was mostly my first comment that was directed to you. The rest was more for everyone. And plus, I’m not completely sure who is on which side of what I was saying.
I understand! If you could share your views on keeping Jesus’ commandments under my new set of questions, it will be easy for me to clarify or to share the truth.
Yes and no. The criteria for being saved is belief. Obeying His commandments is the proof that we believe. If you are not obeying His commandments, are you really saved? My point is saying yes and no is this: We cannot attain salvation by anything we do. It is only by the free gift of God. But, you also can’t be living in deliberate disobedience of God’s commands and think you are saved.
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Micah, I’m glad you give a clear-cut answer! You are close. In bold is where the difference.
You cannot attain salvation by doing anything that not Jesus commanded you to do. However you can only attain salvation by keeping whatever Jesus commanded you to do. Make sense? In keeping Jesus’ commandments, you do it in letter and in spirit, otherwise it is not keeping Jesus’ commandments.
Also, not only deliberate disobedience as many would think would not qualify you for eternal salvation, it is the ignorance that would disqualify one from eternal salvation. In Psalm 95:10,11 God grieves, “It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: 11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.”.
Which is why my next question on knowledge of his commandments. So I’ll look forward to your answer to the other questions.
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No. The Bible is very clear about this.
Ephesians 2:8-9:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
Galatians 2:21:
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
No to question 1, though it is possible for one to be forgiven of sins (babies, etc. that do not have knowledge that they need to be saved) without knowledge of the commandments- Romans 5:12-14:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (for until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
All men have some knowledge of God’s righteousness. Rom 1:16-21:
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: (the righteousness of God is revealed through his gospel through faith) as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (unbelievers who hold the truth, but hold it in unrighteousness)
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (God gives all men light to seek Him, and if they respond to that light He will give them more.)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (That’s very important)
21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
God said in His Bible that all men know Him, and knowingly or un-knowingly believe His truth. They know what is right and wrong- it has been innately revealed.
See above. Knowledge of Jesus’ commandments is not necessary to keep Jesus’ commandments (not necessarily all of them, but many of them). When you say church, do you mean any type of church (e.g. Church of Christ, Roman Catholic Church, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, etc.) or the true Church referenced in the Bible- the body of Christ? If the latter, then yes they should have knowledge of Jesus’ commandments because they read His word.
No to question 1 (see above) but there is a twofold explanation to the latter part of the question. Theoretically, it is possible because we have the Holy Spirit within us and Jesus’ clear, written word, but as long as humanity has existed NO ONE has lived a sinless life EXCEPT for Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. Jesus wants us to keep His commandments so we can have fellowship with Him, and it is always possible to resist temptation to sin- 1 Corinthians 10:13:
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
However, we do not always keep His commandments although it is possible. So if no one can be righteous on their own, what hope is there for the human race?
THAT’S where Jesus Christ comes in. He pledged to take Adam’s place when he ate the fruit, because he loves us. He died on the cross so we would be able to have eternal fellowship with him in Heaven, and He has DEFEATED Sin, Death, Hell and the grave. Hallelujah!
Look in Matthew chapter 26.
38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
But it wasn’t possible.
Jesus asked if there was a different way for man to be saved, but there wasn’t. If God didn’t tell His beloved Son that there was one, what makes you think that there is? The only way for man to be saved was for Jesus to atone for sin on the cross.
John chapter 19.
28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Can’t you just hear Him cry out on that tree?
"IT IS FINISHED!!!"
And praise the Lord… it was.
Nothing more.
Nothing less.
And unlike every other man that died… He ROSE AGAIN the third day, and acsended up into Heaven 40 days later.
Praise God.
Arise, my soul, arise!
Shake off thy guilty fears;
The bleeding Sacrifice
In my behalf appears.
Before the throne my Surety stands;
Before the throne my Surety stands;
My name is written on His hands.
He ever lives above
For me to intercede,
His all-redeeming love,
His precious blood to plead.
His blood atoned for all our race,
His blood atoned for all our race,
And sprinkles now the throne of grace.
Five bleeding wounds He bears,
Received on Calvary;
They pour effectual prayers;
They strongly plead for me.
Forgive him, O forgive, they cry,
Forgive him, O forgive, they cry,
Nor let that ransomed sinner die!
The Father hears Him pray,
His dear anointed One;
He cannot turn away
The presence of His Son.
His Spirit answers to the blood,
His Spirit answers to the blood,
And tells me I am born of God.
To God I’m reconciled,
His pardoning voice I hear;
He owns me for His child,
I can no longer fear.
With confidence I now draw nigh,
With confidence I now draw nigh,
And Father, Abba, Father, cry. -Charles Wesley
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No. Nobody is perfect, but we should certainly try our hardest. This is my understanding. I like Michaels scripture references in the situation.
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Michael, you quote part scripture. Let us understand it from doing plain reading of those 3 verses. You know what they mean? If I make it to mean along the lines of what you mean, it means every body is saved, no matter what! Whether you believe in Jesus or not! You may not agree to that interpretation but that is what it means! Think about it. It does not require your faith at all. If it did, it would have said something like “saved by grace and by faith”. As “through faith” and “by faith” are different.
Also you seem to confuse Jesus’ commandment (or law of Christ) with law of Moses.
Glad you answered my questions. I differ though. I’ll slowly answer the other issues.
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Hi John, no I don’t believe everyone is already saved. I’m not a universalist by any means, and I believe that those who do not believe in the finished work of Jesus Christ will be cast into the lake of lire. All I am trying to say is that works play absolutely no part in taking us to Heaven- only the rewards we receive when we get there.
God saves us by His grace through our faith.
It does not mean that everyone is saved. You must accept His gift of salvation to be saved. So yes, maybe you do have to do something! You have to accept His free gift of salvation! 
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Harrison, maybe that’s wrong understanding in the “churches” (not the bible church) today. I’ve answered Michael on that part. You can be perfect, by the definition or the expectations of God, if you are willing to do what he expects you to do. It is not all that hard like one would tend to think. I mentioned it in my previous post - the 2 things one needs to do.
But here is what Jesus’ says/prays.
John 17:17-19
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Jesus’ words sanctifies and makes one perfect. The problem today, there is no true carrier of his word that the word is not there. We will discuss more.
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