Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Heartbreaking

#21

I do that. And I still grieve when I fail, at the same time having confidence in my faith. This is why I feel the need to ask forgiveness daily.

Back to my point. You seem to be inferring that sinless perfection can be attained, so, I’m going to ask a question to you personally. Please answer in first person.

Do you believe in sinless perfection? Yes, or no? It’s not a salvation issue to me. And I have great respect for your zeal. I just want to know the world view of someone who is of a different culture than me.

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#22

Yes, and as a Christian you have to believe it! Refer also Ephesians 4:12,13. And there are so many other scriptures too.

But you have to understand this too. You don’t have to be not sinning to be sinless, your sins can also be covered (true cover, not fake cover, not a cover claim) so that you are sinless! Either way you are sinless!

Revelation 19:7,8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife (church) hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

So you have to be spotless to attend the marriage of the son.

Again it is not that you control yourself to attain perfection! It is done all in faith. God does it for you. But what do you need to do as faith action plan?

There is generally fake repentance and therefore fake salvation. I will share what is true repentance soon.

But 2 things:

  1. Make Perfect (again if you are not truly born again before)
    When God’s sent preacher preach the word and you truly repent and come into Christ, God forgives you. Clean slate. It is justification. You are clean and perfect at that moment!

  2. Keep Perfect (again if you are not truly born again before)
    The next moment, you sin. 2 things keep you perfect here. 1. God’s appointed preachers, teachers etc. share the word, and the word sanctifies you. For example, now you know you should not resist evil. You become holy in that area. 2. When you are part of such God appointed fellowship, there is sprinkling of blood. Hebrews 12:22-24.

This is God’s definition of perfect. Because then you are in perfect church. But if God’s sent preacher and God’s appointed teachers, etc. are not there, you are not perfect. And you can’t make yourself perfect also.

As an analogy, when would you say you have perfect republic/democracy? Not when people in the country don’t make mistakes, not when elected officials does not do wrong. It is not perfect when law does not do its duty when mistakes happen. Or it not perfect when election is rigged. So is with Church!

It is nothing to do with the culture though! :wink: Again it is nothing at all by me. I believe it is God who is putting the thoughts and words in my mind. In many things there will be one-to-one connection between what I go through and the scripture that I easily understand the scripture! Otherwise I will be prone to errors (not language error, but doctrinal error)!

So America, repent and believe!

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#23

Galatians 2:16-21:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Notice, I’m not giving you my opinion… I’m just giving you the Bible (God’s opinion).

Romans 3:10:

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:19-31:

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

“I’m not holding on to Jesus; He’s holding onto me!” -Ron Block

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#24

That’s correct. But what do people immediately think it to mean?

One of the interpretation principle in the court of law is “every word should add meaning”. Therefore it is the duty of the court to give effect, if possible, to every clause and word of a statute, avoiding, if it may be, any construction which implies that the legislature was ignorant of the meaning of the language it employed.

Possible constructions:

  1. A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. - Correct
  2. A man is justified by faith without deeds. - Wrong

Making the first to mean the second is called sleight of men and Ephesians 4:14 talks about it.
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What is this works? Believing in Jesus and following his commandment is the works! Not what you think is good is NOT good works, what is ordained as good (Ephesians 2:10) is what is good works. Check out this post for my thoughts on good works and how it is contrasted not with bad works but with dead works. Prayer request for Beaumont TX

Deeds of the law is fulfilling the requirements of the law like offering sacrifices in the alter, paying compensation for the wrong committed etc. etc. to pull yourself out of a crime. Such law requirements no one does that anyway. But you have to apply faith. Faith is not merely confessing that you are believing (that devils believe too, James 2:19). Faith should be shown with appropriate works.

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#25

John, I believe that you’re over complicating the gospel… I go with what Jesus Himself said, nothing more and nothing less.

Rom 10:13:

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It’s as simple as that. I believe that believing on the name of the Son of God is believing on the name of the Son of God. If one needs to gain or keep his salvation by keeping the law, then how did the thief on the cross next to Christ get saved?

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#26

Thank you for giving me a direct answer John. I appreciate it. God bless.

Jack

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#27

Michael, Christians are being fooled by the 3-card Monte by the church. I’m only bringing in clarity. I tell you what, every single scripture is non-understood or is misunderstood. This is no exaggeration. That’s why I see deception. I’m only using the scriptures that you bring to show it.

Take Romans 10:13. I’ll quote the following verses as well to see it in context from plain reading.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

How, how, how??

It all starts with the king’s commission! You can’t purchase it like with the queen’s commission! :wink: When that is the case, how one is made to think they can call upon the Lord by themselves and be saved??

Because you cannot simply call upon God and be saved (or delivered). You are under the “full custody” of devil. Devil is not going to let his hold. I guess you know how the child custody thing works!

In OT times, for the people of Israel, there is certain places they can call upon God and be delivered.

Joel 2:32,
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

Today God delivers through his commissioned preachers! He gave them power over all the power of the enemy! Which is why Jesus said to his disciples to heal the sick and say that the kingdom of God is here (meaning deliverance) towards conversion if someone was willing to receive them.

Who is his commissioned preachers is going to be pretty big topic! Maybe some other time.

But soon I’ll share what is repentance. There is going to be deliverance now!

How did the thief on the cross got saved??

Let us apply it in the deliverance framework we just discussed.

Jesus was there. He was sent by God. The thief must have heard the true gospel before and must have believed it on the cross. A belief that sinless Jesus have to die this way and be resurrected for mankind’s resurrection! As a reflection of this faith, the thief calls upon the Lord. His words are both confession and act of this faith. He willing to even let him subject to the mocking when he defended someone who appeared to be incapable of saving himself and let alone saving others. In the background of people mocking and saying “he saved others and himself he cannot save!”. The thief as an act of faith said, “40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.”

Also the thief had tremendous faith! He was looking at things unseen! Not on the things that are seen. He did not ask to be delivered from the cross but rather be delivered from this world and be found in the resurrection!

Like I said before, “Make Perfect, Keep Perfect”. He was made perfect by Jesus. He did not live to be kept perfect. That part was not applicable to him. So he was sinless and perfect and was saved!

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#28

I’ll add some more just to be more clear.

I said you fulfill the law, NOT keep the law, to be ultimately saved. Let me see if I can explain the difference this way. Lets say,

The law: Observe 65 speed limit.

In keeping the law,
Punishment for failing to observe: Tickets, penalty, points, driver license suspension, jail sentence
Reward for observing law: Low insurance premium
Law will start to have dominion over you when you violate. Soon your driver license can be suspended. You still drive to work and to do stuff. You get sentence.
In all this, you are on your own!

In fulfilling the law,
You fail, then ask forgiveness (God’s help) and observe (with God’s help).
No immediate punishment or reward, or something like that. (Don’t know how to put it exactly.)

Now, did the thief fulfill the law? Yes. Because of his faith, he was forgiven and was fully justified (clean slate). And he did not live to violate the law afterwards! Thereby he was in fulfillment of the law!

Was his faith without deeds? No, it was with deeds. What is deeds, for example, with resisting not evil? Being quiet! In the thief’s case, the deeds was willing to go through humiliation in front of others for his belief.

#29

Romans 3:24-26:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

God set forth Jesus to be a propitiation, so we could be partakers of his righteousness. When God looks at us, He sees His Son and His righteousness, not anything we did- even asking forgiveness after we sin. It’s all already under the blood.

#30

Whatever you quote is the “Make Perfect” part. The law also did the same “Make Perfect” part. The only difference was in what was sacrificed. This is cleansing from sin. Called justification.

But here is the “Keep Perfect” part, which law failed to accomplish. That is to keep one from further sinning. Called sanctification. I’m quoting from the same Paul’s letter to Romans.

Romans 8:3,4

  • 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
  • 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

What does the above mean? What is this righteousness? Why do you need to walk after the Spirit? Again,
.
Hebrews 10:26

  • 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
  • 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

In the above, if law is no longer there, how does one supposed to know something is a sin to willfully do it? It says the fate of adversaries (non-believers) will befall on believers (i.e. those who have received the knowledge of the truth) too if they don’t obey! Please read the entire Hebrews 10 for context.
.
Hebrews 10:10,14

  • 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
  • 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

And God has ONLY perfected them that are sanctified!!!
.
Why does Paul say these in Hebrews 12:4,13,14,15,16 as an example?

  • 4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
  • 13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
  • 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
  • 15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
  • 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Hebrews 12:25

  • 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

And Jesus says, (btw these are not unbelievers! All those who called Jesus, Lord Lord, and all those who did things in Jesus’ name)
.
Matthew 7:21-23

  • 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
  • 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
  • 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
#31

Hebrews 10:1-18:

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

6 in burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 but this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

#32

Would it be OK if I stepped in here? I enjoy a good debate… I mean, I probably enjoy it too much. I once had my own web site devoted to debate. I’m all for you guys continuing. You’ve been courteous with each other and have done a relatively decent job of using scripture to support your positions.

As a bystander, I’d like to see if you could each bring the points back around to your original thesis, and then reference or closely align each additional post as closely to that as possible. Perhaps you’re already doing that, but when you start posting nearly full chapters of the Bible with none of your own comments on how you believe that ties in with your thesis, it becomes hard to follow.

Be careful not to use the technique of overwhelming your opponent with info to try to get your point across. While not technically a logical fallacy, it’s not considered polite when discussing opposing ideas.

Thank you both for keeping things polite.

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#33

Michael, if I have to explain all the verses that you quote, it is going to be lengthy, and I’m not sure how effective it will be if I were to be brief. However I’m prepared to go to any extent to get it explained. If you could tell me your understanding of it would help. Or if you could show how I have contradicted it, then I’ll be able to clarify those things, and it will make it easier for me.

I’ll take Hebrews 10:1, for example.

What is shadow of things?
As for clearing the guilt:
The law cleared one of guilt from wrong doing when the requirement of the law is met.
Jesus clears the guilt from wrong doing by himself meeting the requirement of the law when one were to believe in Jesus.
There is a similarity between the two which is why the former is the shadow of the latter.
If latter is not better than the former, there is no need for the latter. So Paul shows how the latter is better.

Did the law make some one perfect in the sense of completely (100%) cleared of guilt? Yes it did. This what I termed as “Make Perfect”. You were perfect at that very moment. Hebrews 10:1 does not contradict this assertion (of what I wanted to convey). Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross does that too.

What Hebrews 10:1 goes on to say is, the sacrifice was unable to keep one perfect or continually make one perfect. In other words, the sin conscience is not purged. Therefore you are likely commit error again. Also when you violate the law again, you needed to offer a fresh sacrifice. The old sacrifice was no longer good for the fresh offense.

Compare this with Jesus sacrifice. It not only clears the guilt, (make one perfect), it also keeps one perfect from removing the sin conscience. If one sins again despite, it is the same Jesus’ sacrifice clears one of guilt again. There is no need for another Jesus sacrifice. But what you do, every time you sin, is, you trodden under foot the blood of Jesus. Which is why Paul says in Romans 6:1,

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

So if you are not sanctified and come into obedience, Jesus’ sacrifice cannot make one perfect for eternal salvation. As I quoted before,
Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

What one needs to do here?

  1. Accept the true gospel dispensed by his commissioned preachers from repenting and believing. It makes one perfect. (Btw, whatever you see today are fake preachers and fake gospel. You know what, first time when I shared in a gathering, the immediate reaction and thinking from some were how much money I could make and how much popular I could become. They never understood it. Paul says he would not abuse the power in the gospel by not receiving anything for himself. Peter said something like silver and gold have I none, but such as I have I give it thee.) Enough is enough with fake gospel!
  2. Hear his words from his appointed preachers/teachers. The true word sanctifies one! It keeps one perfect.

That’s all one need to do, in a nutshell!

But keep in mind also these things…
.
II Corinthians 11:4,
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

I Timothy 6:3-5,
3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

What I share here is true gospel. Feel free to test it out like I John 4:1 advises. And this is all God’s copyright material. Even if someone copies this without Jesus’ commissioning, it will not make it a true gospel! Trust me, preachers are going to change their tunes now!

#34

Hi John,

I appreciate your detailed replies. All I am saying is that the Bible (not my opinion) is infallible and it says that the law could never completely take away sin. All it could do was cover sin, but Jesus’ sacrifice (one sacrifice for sins for ever) can actually cleanse (take away) sin as if it never happened (their sins and iniquities will I remember no more). The Romans 6 passage is referring to sanctified, separated Christian life, not a salvation issue.

The Bible says that all we need to do to be saved is “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” (Acts 16:31). Nothing about repeatedly asking forgiveness for sin in order to be saved, although we of course should ask forgiveness daily to have good fellowship with the Lord. We don’t need to get saved again and again every time we sin. Christ already atoned for all sin on the cross (“it is finished”- John 19:30).

Free from the law, O happy condition,
Jesus hath bled, and there is remission;
Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
Grace hath redeemed us once for all.

Once for all, O sinner, receive it!
Once for all, O brother, believe it!
Cling to the cross; the burden will fall,
Christ hath redeemed us once for all! -Philip P. Bliss

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#35

Michael,

I think there is some confusion here with “sin” terminology.

Let me put it this way. There is sin nature, and there is committing of sin. The term “sin” is used to mean both. Sin or sin nature was there in everyone of Adam’s seed. Only when sin was committed, either by you or by your forefathers, it was held against you. When law’s requirement was met, the sin committed was absolved by law. Which was what law was capable of doing. (This is what I termed as “Make Perfect” for understanding purposes, but maybe a different terminology can be used for this. And let not the terminology carry us away.)

But what the law could not do was to take away the sin nature. Therefore, one was prone to commit sin. Jesus’ sacrifice accomplished what law could not accomplish. It condemned the sin (taking away the sin might not be the correct way to put it).

Agree up to this??

If so, my first question to you, why are Christians committing sin??

Without a message from one sent from God, (either Jesus himself or Jesus’ commissioned people - direct or indirect) no body can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So my second question to you is, how could one believe in Jesus Christ, when all there is is fake preacher and fake gospel? They would not know Jesus to start with. Would not such believer’s belief a fake and hence their salvation a fake?

It is fine, Jesus did all those things. But the sprinkling of blood and therefore forgiveness of sin is ONLY in him.
To quote one example verse, Ephesians 1:7,
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
One has to be really in him or come into him or one has to be part of church that is in him to receive forgiveness. One definition of in him is here below.
I John 3:24,
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.
So, My third question to you is, when church has no knowledge of his commandments, how do they keep Jesus’ commandments to be considered to be IN HIM to obtain forgiveness??

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#36

I was not planning to comment on this thread, but there are a few things that I believe the Bible plainly teaches and must be understood. First the Bible does say that if we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ we will be saved. However part of that believing includes living out His teaching in the Bible. James 2:19-24 says
19. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23. And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
The word “only” at the end of verse 24 indicates that faith is an important part but it must be accompanied by works.
I must be clear that I am not preaching a works religion. Galatians 2:16 says
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
Faith and works most go hand in hand.

You are right Christ did atone for all so on the cross. This means all sins can be forgive without ever another sacrifice. However sins that are committed after we become a Christian must still be confessed in order for them to be forgiven.
Hebrews 10:26-29 says

  1. For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Also Matthew 10:22 says

“And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.”

There are more verses that I could point out, but it is clear that we must continue to confess our sins when we fail and be faithful to the end in order to be saved. God said to the church of Ephesus,

  1. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

If salvation was once and done this church couldn’t have fallen away.
Hopefully this all makes sense and if I have misunderstood you in any way please forgive me.

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#37

Kevin, a question to you as well if you don’t mind. Theory is fine but a practice question. Isn’t Jesus’ teaching hard teaching? When so, how can one live out His teaching? For instance, OT law requirement was (perceived) to be lifting a 50 lbs whereas NT law requirement is (perceived) to be lifting a 250 lbs, how will one succeed?

(That’s why church changed the theory to lifting a 0 lbs under NT??! :wink: )

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#38

Perfect! You nailed a lot if the things I was thinking of saying! :wink:

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#39

John, it is impossible! WITHOUT the Holy Spirit living in us! It is only through Him that we can do it. Does that mean we will never sin again? No. We have the power, through the HS of course, never to sin again. However, it is almost sure that we will.
Why would Jesus’ teaching be in the Bible if He didn’t expect us to follow it? 1 John 2:1-6 says:
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
See in verse 1, John tells them that they don’t have to sin anymore. But, if(and when) they do, we have an Advocate. Jesus of course. Jesus couldn’t be our advocate if we weren’t already saved! And then of course in verses 3-6, we will keep his commandments if we love Him. And like I said, we can only do that through Him.
Two other passages real quick…
The first are some of Jesus’ own words in John 14:21: He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”
And then 15:4-5, 8… Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
See, the Bible clearly states that if we are really Christians, we will have works or fruit to prove it. Like @Kevin_S said, don’t get me wrong. I am not preaching a works salvation, but Jesus, James, and John are pretty clear. Faith without works is dead.
Ephesians 2:8-10 says: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
I hope this all makes sense and also that I am understanding you guys’ arguments correctly. To be honest, it is a little hard to completely understand what you are saying.

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#40

Hey guys, I understand it can be hard to fully grasp super long replies, so I’ll keep this simple.

One can be born again (saved) simply by:

  1. Faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ to atone for sin.
  2. Plus nothing.

One can have successful Christian walk with the Lord by keeping Christ’s commandments, but it is not necessary for salvation. Works can justify a man in other men’s sight (I will shew thee my faith by my works- James 2:18) but never in God’s sight. OT sacrifices and offerings could cover sin but could never take them away.

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