Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Fret board memorizing

There are lots of different methods for learning the fingerboard. I generally ask my students to memorize block forms. I find that they allow the student to memorize the fingerboard in 4 or 5 fret sections (which is pretty easy to learn). Here is the Major scale in block forms that overlap:

Notice that the 3rd finger of the left hand in the last form plays the same fret as the first finger in the first form. These 4 forms cover the entire fingerboard for the Major scale. But here is the cool part, these same 4 forms cover the entire fingerboard for all 7 modes (diatonic scales) including Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian (natural minor) and Locrian. Just to be clear, you can see from the following Aeolian (natural minor) block forms that they are the same exact fingering as the major scale; the only difference is the position of each of the notes within that scale (e.g. the root “1” has moved as have all the other notes of the scale).

What is even cooler about learning these 4 forms is that instead of learning 7 positions for each of the 7 different scales in 12 keys each (588 different combinations), you just need to be able to memorize these 4 block forms and know how to use them to be able to do the same thing.

Anyway, there are lots of ways to approach learning the fingerboard, I try to make it as easy as possible. :smiley:

DrGuitar,
That is an interesting looking approach. How long does it take a typical student to learn the blocks? After that, how long to get comfortable knowing how to apply it to common modes in varying keys?
Thanks for posting it!

I’ve been working through William Leavitt’s Berklee book and it seems very similar to Drguitar’s method, though the boxes are a little different. Leavitt uses 5 boxes, but the concept of moving them around to switch modes is the same.

Generally, I will have the student learn to memorize one block a week. So a month is plenty of time to memorize the 4 blocks. In recent years, I have seen books which teach the 5 block method. I find the 5th block to be clumsy under the fingers, but it does overlap two of the forms that I butt end up to each other. The method you speak of is called the CAGED guitar method and is a strong method. It is so called because each form is built around a specific open chord form, those chords being C, A, G, E and D.

As far as the length of time it takes to know how to use this information fully, that depends on the student. I have had students who learn that information at the same time as when they are memorizing the forms so they are able to use them correctly nearly immediately. Some students find it hard to wrap their heads around the simplicity of the concept and they can take quite long (a year or more).

Moreover, just knowing what is correct is a huge distance from being able to use that knowledge musically with your fingers and a pick. You have to teach your hands how to get around the fingerboard easily and be able to use this information nearly spontaneously before you can begin to be creative with these forms. Also, even if you can do all of the above, that only takes you to the point where you can improvise with diatonic modes (scales). That takes you pretty far, but is still quite a distance from sounding jazzy, bluesy or bluegrassy. Those styles require at least the addition of blue notes (b3, b5, b7) and the proper placement of those notes within a line or riff. However, I find it a good place to start and properly learned, it can carve years off the time it takes to learn to improvise.

Thanks!

— Begin quote from "drguitar"

knowing what is correct is a huge distance from being able to use that knowledge musically with your fingers and a pick. You have to teach your hands how to get around the fingerboard easily and be able to use this information nearly spontaneously before you can begin to be creative with these forms. Also, even if you can do all of the above, that only takes you to the point where you can improvise with diatonic modes (scales). That takes you pretty far, but is still quite a distance from sounding jazzy, bluesy or bluegrassy. Those styles require at least the addition of blue notes (b3, b5, b7) and the proper placement of those notes within a line or riff.

— End quote

I see… nothing to it, then. I should have it all worked out this afternoon. :laughing:

I have, with time and a lot of trial-and-error, mapped out the entire fretboard like we are talking about (though not exactly like your method, drguitar, or the CAGED system). But, I essentially think of the fretboard as boxes and use diagonally based connecting runs to move me between positions. I can run through the major and natural minor scales pretty easily, I can move my mental map around to fit any key I want, and I can probably improvise something coherent over most music, including bluegrass.

My problem is that I don’t always sound bluegrassy when I improvise. On one hand I have this trusty mental map to move me around the fretboard, and on the other hand I have all these cool Banjo Ben licks. Now, I just need to figure out how to integrate them into one smooth style. Lately, I’ve been trying to break apart Ben’s licks and see why they work rather than just trying to get my technique up to speed, but it’s a long hard slog.

Here’s an example of how my box or position map breaks down for bluegrass.
[attachment=0]riff.jpg[/attachment]
I ran across this little riff the other day and it’s pretty easy to play and sounds good when played to speed, but because of the open strings my mental map kind of breaks down. It’s like I’m switching back and forth between two position boxes on successive notes and my brain can’t yet do that on the fly.

Larry, I think you need to quit using open strings, and then, you’ll be golden. :laughing:

Just kidding, but I do understand your dilemma. I think this is especially true in bluegrass where such a large amount of what we do is in the first 4 frets and the open string use is so prevalent. Unfortunately, I am not at the same point in applying theory as you so I haven’t run into the problem you are facing. As I said before, I am not thinking notes when I am playing bluegrass. If I am thinking at all, it’s just intervals off of a few key note references (root, IV and V). It’s kind of liberating actually (just fun). At the same time I know I’ll need to pay the piper eventually. To paraphrase Jack Torrance in the Shining. “All play and no work makes mike a dullard.”

— Begin quote from "ldpayton"

My problem is that I don’t always sound bluegrassy when I improvise. On one hand I have this trusty mental map to move me around the fretboard, and on the other hand I have all these cool Banjo Ben licks. Now, I just need to figure out how to integrate them into one smooth style.

— End quote

Ben has a great video that explains his thought process when creating a nice bluegrassy lead over a melody. http://www.banjobenclark.com/videos/free-guitar/guitar-red-haired-boy-259/

He basically explains a simple method for developing a bluegrassy lead line.

In the process of trying to dissect what makes a bluegrass lead sound bluegrassy, I have noticed some concepts that might help you.

[ul]Memorize the melody (the more places on the fingerboard the better)
Start your riff on the same note that is in the melody at that moment (if not that exact note, at least a chord tone of the chord being played)
End your riff on the same note that is in the melody at that moment(if not that exact note, at least a chord tone of the chord being played)
Add blue notes to create a bluesy sound (the blue notes are b3, b5, b7)
Strong bluesy movement of those notes are b3 to 3, 3 to b3, b5 to 5, 1 to b7, b3 to 2
Using 4 note patterns in sequence (e.g. 1-6-5-3, 6-5-3-b3, 5-3-b3-1, 3-b3-1-b7, 1) are often used in bluegrass guitar leads
More than any other rule, stick with the melody![/ul]

Have fun!

Thanks dr. That red haired boy lesson of Ben’s has been the single most valuable lesson I’ve been through here. It really helped me see how a bluegrass lead is constructed, and I’ve since used his method to tab out several decent lead breaks for myself, many of them incorporating the open strings that give me problems.

I feel like I have a fair number of tools for constructing a bluegrass lead, but what I can’t do is come up with that stuff in real time. If I’m halfway up the neck and start throwing in open notes, I have trouble anticipating what it’s going to sound like. I’ve been spending a fair amount of time playing in G and C positions so that all the open notes are diatonic and then just kind of randomly throwing in open notes while working up the neck. I’m hoping to familiarize myself with the sensation of hitting a smaller diameter string and getting a lower pitched note. I need to get to the point where I can anticipate what these riffs sound like before I play them, like I can when playing out of a box position.

I’m probably just expecting too much, too fast. It is getting easier, just not as easy as I would like.

— Begin quote from "ldpayton"

…If I’m halfway up the neck and start throwing in open notes, I have trouble anticipating what it’s going to sound like…I need to get to the point where I can anticipate what these riffs sound like before I play them, like I can when playing out of a box position.

— End quote

Well. you are doing much better than I am then. :smiley:

My background is classical and jazz so I am used to playing all over the neck except in open position. It took me a while before I could throw riffs in while playing 1st position chords. I am much more comfortable up the neck.

It’s all a step at a time.

Thanks to everyone for chiming in on this subject,I have much ahead of me and ur thoughts help.I appreciate all the comments. :slight_smile:

I just started working on this over the weekend by accident. I played the cords to a song I know in at the non barred position. I then strummed the same song with bar cords. I thought that was pretty cool so I started trying to play other songs using bar cords. I then started finding all of the cords at different positions on the neck. As I played each cord I called out its name. I found each cord in at least three positions. Once I started working on this I couldn’t stop until my fingers were wore out. Within a few hours I had memorized the positions of each cord up and down the neck.

The trick is to know the distance between each note. For instance if you start on the top string(6).
Open E
1st fret F
3rd fret G
5th fret A
7th Fret B
8th Fret C
10th fret D
12th fret you are back at E again

  • Notice that all notes are one step apart except EF and BC. They are 1/2 step apart. This is true for every string on the guitar.

Knowing the spacing between the notes lets you apply this information to the cords. For instance hold regular E cord. Now move the same shape 1/2 step towards the sound hole and bar the 1st fret. You are now playing a F cord. Move this shape another step and you have a G cord. Move Another Step and you have a A cord. Etc.

Lets do it with a A cord.
Form a A cord at the nut. Now move it 1 step to towards the hole and bar the 2nd fret. You are playing a B cord. Move another 1/2 step and you are playing a C. Remember the spacing between the notes that I mentioned above. It is only a half step from B to C. Now Move a another step. You are playing an E. ( If you change the A shape to a A minor shape, you are playing a E minor in this position.) Etc.

I just played all of these cord shapes in many different positions over and over and kept naming them out as I did it. Within a few hours I had memorized lots of cords positions. I know there are lots of ways to learn things. But this worked for me.

*I think this method is the basis for the what is referred to as the CAGED theory. I have not studied that so I can’t be sure.

Good topic!

I’ve looked into all the methods/theories in learning the fret board. I’ll have to agree that I use the example of Dr’s a lot. But then again I do kind of a modified “CAGED” system style learning also.

I personally think that an aspiring player should at least know: How to make the same chord in 3 positions So let’s start with the G chord in the open position (typical old G chord that everyone uses). Well from here learn your major scale around that incorporating the use of open strings in the scale. Next move up to your next G chord which is the bar chord (E shape) and learn your major scale around that. Next move up to the next G chord (which is a D shape on the 1st 3 stings) and learn your major scale around that.

In all cases play through 2 octaves of the scale is possible. Once you have done this start with another chord in the open position and work up through at least 3 positions and learn it.

In this way you are learning the different positions of a chord and the fret board. So not only are you memorizing the fret board but likewise where identical chords are located. So the next time you show up at a jam and there are multiples of your instrument playing you can add to it by not playing the same chord as them in the rhythm but instead maybe cross pick on that G chord an octave higher over the rhythm to change the sound a bit/add more to it.

I also wanted to add that on Youtube to a search for “PebberBrown” and listen/watch his stuff. He is pretty detailed and is a straight shooter in his lessons…sure he has a fender strat in his hands and is a “rocker” but when it comes to scales, practice, and memorization it’s all the same no matter the genre, and he’ll let you know what guitarists “sucks” in how they are doing something sloppily…again the guys pulls not punches. If I really wanted to be a “pro” at some point I’d probably ritually go through every lesson and practice schedule he has come up with, but being how I am a yahoo and do this music thing as a hobby then I can just pick some of his lessons to take ideas from, and I can “suck” at them.

Lesson of him starting to teach the CAGED system:
youtube.com/watch?v=ueW5L7Wy4As

Oldhat

I think it is important to point out (and probably obvious) that everyone who learns to play an instrument is doing so for differing reasons and as a result will learn different things. In addition, even if you can find two people who have the exact same reasons for learning an instrument, they will generally learn completely differently because they perceive the world around them in a different fashion. And even if you can find two people who have the exact same perception of their body movement, sound and vision, they will still learn differently because of their differences in learning aptitudes (see multiple intelligences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences).

The point I am making is that everyone will come to the guitar table with differing points of view, even on the same subject. And in turn, will find differing ways to reach their person goals. As a teacher, it is not my job to shove knowledge down the throat of the student; but it is my job to find out how they best learn and find a way to impart the knowledge they would like in a way that they can best assimilate that knowledge. This is one of the reasons I so enjoy Ben’s teaching style. It is clear, deliberate, non-judgmental and most of all fun!

I am very sure Pebber Brown is an exceptional guitar player and he may be a great teacher, but I have some reservations with him flippantly saying certain groups of guitar players “suck”. Unfortunately that shows a complete lack of sensitivity to the fact that folks learn in differing ways and do not all have the same goals. If I were Leonardo DaVinci, would it be okay for me to say that Vincent VanGogh sucks because he does not paint like me? Let me make this clearer. About 30 years ago, I was teaching Down syndrome teenager how to play the guitar. It was exhausting. Every week, she seemed to know less then she did the week before. After a year of lessons, I went to teach her one week (at the school where she lived) and her counselors told me she had performed at a talent show the previous weekend. I went into the lesson and asked her to play the song for me. She performed “This Land is Your Land”, and played it quite nicely on the guitar while singing in possibly the worst singing voice ever. However, the joy on her face as she sang and played the tune was incredible. I was nearly in tears. It was at that moment that I realized that playing an instrument is not just about being the best at it or even playing perfectly; it was all about the joy of making music and helping folks get there. That is something Pebber Brown ignores when he says that folks who do not do as he says “suck”.

One last point. Back when I was a teen, I was a big fan of George Benson’s early work (The George Benson Cookbook, Blue Benson). His soloing style and chord solos were fast, slick and fun to listen to. I imagined that to play with such aplomb, he must have exceptional hand technique and nearly perfect hand positioning. So I bought 3rd row center tickets to see him perform at the Wilmington Grand Opera house. When he came onstage and started to play, I immediately realize that he had the hand position of a garage band rock player! He used mostly his 1st and 3rd finger on his left had and his thumb was up over the top of the neck. His left hand fingertops were often flat against the fingerboard (rather than the finger tips). This is something that Pebber Brown clearly states makes you a “suck” guitar player. None of these “suck” techniques seemed to slow him down much. I guess that makes George Benson a wealthy, sucky guitarist. :smiley:

Watch his left hand in the video:

[video]http://youtu.be/RpEfAV1T5b0[/video]

Just my $.02 … stepping off my soapbox.

YMMV

I haven’t had a chance to read all of the posts on the board, but the way I memorized the fretboard was by learning to read music. A lot of people don’t want to take the time, but IMO it’s totally worth it. It’s not that hard if you make it at least a part of your practice routine. Eventually the time you spend will pay off. I still play through songbooks that I have in standard notation. I think reading helps with understanding music theory, and if you want to be a bit of a student of music I’d say take the time to learn to read a bit.

— Begin quote from "stanton816"

…the way I memorized the fretboard was by learning to read music. A lot of people don’t want to take the time, but IMO it’s totally worth it. It’s not that hard if you make it at least a part of your practice routine…I think reading helps with understanding music theory, and if you want to be a bit of a student of music I’d say take the time to learn to read a bit.

— End quote

I completely agree. In addition, it allows you to speak in a common language with other musicians (a huge plus).

A simple book for learning to read standard notation is the Melodia (a book of reading exercises that was written back in the late 1800s). Everything for the first 1/4th of the book is scale line without any large intervals. In addition, it is written extremely simply at first and very gradually gets more complex which makes the learning very easy!. Be sure to say each letter name as you play each note (until you have the notes completely memorized), that way you very quickly learn to recognize what the note is (by name and staff position) and not just where that note is played on the fingerboard.

Learning to read music is, at best, a roundabout way to ‘memorize’ the fretboard. The quickest way to familiarize oneself with the fretboard is to play all the different types of multi-octave scales. To get up to speed fastest, use tablature to learn these scales. If you try to learn by ‘ear’, it will take much longer. And learning with standard notation is counter-productive. This is because standard notation doesn’t indicate which string and fret, among the multiple fretboard locations in which a particular note can be found, is the best.

For an adult who plays only the guitar, learning guitar with tablature is more efficient than using standard notation.

It would be nice if all kids had a musical education that included standard notation. But in this day and age, that’s not common. Standard notation is worthwhile and perhaps even necessary if you’re a multi-instrumentalist or if you want to understand theory. But for learning a single fretted instrument, it’s a luxury not a necessity.

Hi Julian,

I must respectfully disagree with you about a few points.

— Begin quote from ____

Learning to read music is, at best, a roundabout way to ‘memorize’ the fretboard.

— End quote

If you are looking to memorize where the notes are on the fingerboard, it certainly is not a roundabout way to memorize.

— Begin quote from ____

And learning with standard notation is counter-productive. This is because standard notation doesn’t indicate which string and fret, among the multiple fretboard locations in which a particular note can be found, is the best.

— End quote

Of course, this depends on what you are reading. If you are reading a flute part, it will not contain any markings for a guitarist to use. But if you are playing classical guitar, fingerings (including which string and which finger to use on that string) are very often included in standard notation.

— Begin quote from ____

For an adult who plays only the guitar, learning guitar with tablature is more efficient than using standard notation.

— End quote

It may be easier to learn at first, but I do not believe it is better in the long run, especially when you move to styles or tunes of music that may not be tabbed. In fact, in many ways tablature is just a stepping stone to learning how to read notation.

— Begin quote from ____

It would be nice if all kids had a musical education that included standard notation. But in this day and age, that’s not common. Standard notation is worthwhile and perhaps even necessary if you’re a multi-instrumentalist or if you want to understand theory. But for learning a single fretted instrument, it’s a luxury not a necessity.

— End quote

Actually, learning to read standard notation is more accessible now than it ever has been. Go check out the musictheory.net website and you will find a simple method and interactive method for learning how to read notation and basic music theory. I teach a class of middle schoolers this information within a dozen or 2 classes, with no outside homework.

And I cannot agree that learning to read music is a luxury. It may not be necessary, but I would not go so far as to call it a luxury. Wes Montgomery could not read music, but most folks will never have his talent or ability. And you can learn all you need to know from using your ears, but why not learn to read music and speed up the process.

I routinely teach students all the notes in every position on the fingerboard in a matter of about 8 minutes. It takes another 6 minutes to show them where those notes are on the staff and how they correlate. At that point, they know where any note they see on the staff is played on the fingerboard. Don’t get me wrong, they are not stellar sight readers at that point, they just know where to find the notes they see on the staff. It takes practice to teach your fingers what your mind knows.

One other point, I have a very good friend who sight reads any and all music, like you or I might play a C chord. You can put a full orchestra score in from of him and he will sight reduce that score correctly for the guitar on first reading, often at tempo. Other than the fact that it is an impressive skill to witness, he is unlimited by any constraints on the choice of musical style or what instrument that music was originally written for. I know that he would not agree that learning to read music for a guitarist is a luxury, it is yet another tool to make you a better musician.

Can you be a great musician without learning to read music? Sure, but sometimes it is easier to set down the butter knife and use a screwdriver.