Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Fret board memorizing

#22

I just started working on this over the weekend by accident. I played the cords to a song I know in at the non barred position. I then strummed the same song with bar cords. I thought that was pretty cool so I started trying to play other songs using bar cords. I then started finding all of the cords at different positions on the neck. As I played each cord I called out its name. I found each cord in at least three positions. Once I started working on this I couldn’t stop until my fingers were wore out. Within a few hours I had memorized the positions of each cord up and down the neck.

The trick is to know the distance between each note. For instance if you start on the top string(6).
Open E
1st fret F
3rd fret G
5th fret A
7th Fret B
8th Fret C
10th fret D
12th fret you are back at E again

  • Notice that all notes are one step apart except EF and BC. They are 1/2 step apart. This is true for every string on the guitar.

Knowing the spacing between the notes lets you apply this information to the cords. For instance hold regular E cord. Now move the same shape 1/2 step towards the sound hole and bar the 1st fret. You are now playing a F cord. Move this shape another step and you have a G cord. Move Another Step and you have a A cord. Etc.

Lets do it with a A cord.
Form a A cord at the nut. Now move it 1 step to towards the hole and bar the 2nd fret. You are playing a B cord. Move another 1/2 step and you are playing a C. Remember the spacing between the notes that I mentioned above. It is only a half step from B to C. Now Move a another step. You are playing an E. ( If you change the A shape to a A minor shape, you are playing a E minor in this position.) Etc.

I just played all of these cord shapes in many different positions over and over and kept naming them out as I did it. Within a few hours I had memorized lots of cords positions. I know there are lots of ways to learn things. But this worked for me.

*I think this method is the basis for the what is referred to as the CAGED theory. I have not studied that so I can’t be sure.

#23

Good topic!

I’ve looked into all the methods/theories in learning the fret board. I’ll have to agree that I use the example of Dr’s a lot. But then again I do kind of a modified “CAGED” system style learning also.

I personally think that an aspiring player should at least know: How to make the same chord in 3 positions So let’s start with the G chord in the open position (typical old G chord that everyone uses). Well from here learn your major scale around that incorporating the use of open strings in the scale. Next move up to your next G chord which is the bar chord (E shape) and learn your major scale around that. Next move up to the next G chord (which is a D shape on the 1st 3 stings) and learn your major scale around that.

In all cases play through 2 octaves of the scale is possible. Once you have done this start with another chord in the open position and work up through at least 3 positions and learn it.

In this way you are learning the different positions of a chord and the fret board. So not only are you memorizing the fret board but likewise where identical chords are located. So the next time you show up at a jam and there are multiples of your instrument playing you can add to it by not playing the same chord as them in the rhythm but instead maybe cross pick on that G chord an octave higher over the rhythm to change the sound a bit/add more to it.

I also wanted to add that on Youtube to a search for “PebberBrown” and listen/watch his stuff. He is pretty detailed and is a straight shooter in his lessons…sure he has a fender strat in his hands and is a “rocker” but when it comes to scales, practice, and memorization it’s all the same no matter the genre, and he’ll let you know what guitarists “sucks” in how they are doing something sloppily…again the guys pulls not punches. If I really wanted to be a “pro” at some point I’d probably ritually go through every lesson and practice schedule he has come up with, but being how I am a yahoo and do this music thing as a hobby then I can just pick some of his lessons to take ideas from, and I can “suck” at them.

Lesson of him starting to teach the CAGED system:
youtube.com/watch?v=ueW5L7Wy4As

Oldhat

#24

I think it is important to point out (and probably obvious) that everyone who learns to play an instrument is doing so for differing reasons and as a result will learn different things. In addition, even if you can find two people who have the exact same reasons for learning an instrument, they will generally learn completely differently because they perceive the world around them in a different fashion. And even if you can find two people who have the exact same perception of their body movement, sound and vision, they will still learn differently because of their differences in learning aptitudes (see multiple intelligences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_multiple_intelligences).

The point I am making is that everyone will come to the guitar table with differing points of view, even on the same subject. And in turn, will find differing ways to reach their person goals. As a teacher, it is not my job to shove knowledge down the throat of the student; but it is my job to find out how they best learn and find a way to impart the knowledge they would like in a way that they can best assimilate that knowledge. This is one of the reasons I so enjoy Ben’s teaching style. It is clear, deliberate, non-judgmental and most of all fun!

I am very sure Pebber Brown is an exceptional guitar player and he may be a great teacher, but I have some reservations with him flippantly saying certain groups of guitar players “suck”. Unfortunately that shows a complete lack of sensitivity to the fact that folks learn in differing ways and do not all have the same goals. If I were Leonardo DaVinci, would it be okay for me to say that Vincent VanGogh sucks because he does not paint like me? Let me make this clearer. About 30 years ago, I was teaching Down syndrome teenager how to play the guitar. It was exhausting. Every week, she seemed to know less then she did the week before. After a year of lessons, I went to teach her one week (at the school where she lived) and her counselors told me she had performed at a talent show the previous weekend. I went into the lesson and asked her to play the song for me. She performed “This Land is Your Land”, and played it quite nicely on the guitar while singing in possibly the worst singing voice ever. However, the joy on her face as she sang and played the tune was incredible. I was nearly in tears. It was at that moment that I realized that playing an instrument is not just about being the best at it or even playing perfectly; it was all about the joy of making music and helping folks get there. That is something Pebber Brown ignores when he says that folks who do not do as he says “suck”.

One last point. Back when I was a teen, I was a big fan of George Benson’s early work (The George Benson Cookbook, Blue Benson). His soloing style and chord solos were fast, slick and fun to listen to. I imagined that to play with such aplomb, he must have exceptional hand technique and nearly perfect hand positioning. So I bought 3rd row center tickets to see him perform at the Wilmington Grand Opera house. When he came onstage and started to play, I immediately realize that he had the hand position of a garage band rock player! He used mostly his 1st and 3rd finger on his left had and his thumb was up over the top of the neck. His left hand fingertops were often flat against the fingerboard (rather than the finger tips). This is something that Pebber Brown clearly states makes you a “suck” guitar player. None of these “suck” techniques seemed to slow him down much. I guess that makes George Benson a wealthy, sucky guitarist. :smiley:

Watch his left hand in the video:

[video]http://youtu.be/RpEfAV1T5b0[/video]

Just my $.02 … stepping off my soapbox.

YMMV

#25

I haven’t had a chance to read all of the posts on the board, but the way I memorized the fretboard was by learning to read music. A lot of people don’t want to take the time, but IMO it’s totally worth it. It’s not that hard if you make it at least a part of your practice routine. Eventually the time you spend will pay off. I still play through songbooks that I have in standard notation. I think reading helps with understanding music theory, and if you want to be a bit of a student of music I’d say take the time to learn to read a bit.

#26

— Begin quote from "stanton816"

…the way I memorized the fretboard was by learning to read music. A lot of people don’t want to take the time, but IMO it’s totally worth it. It’s not that hard if you make it at least a part of your practice routine…I think reading helps with understanding music theory, and if you want to be a bit of a student of music I’d say take the time to learn to read a bit.

— End quote

I completely agree. In addition, it allows you to speak in a common language with other musicians (a huge plus).

A simple book for learning to read standard notation is the Melodia (a book of reading exercises that was written back in the late 1800s). Everything for the first 1/4th of the book is scale line without any large intervals. In addition, it is written extremely simply at first and very gradually gets more complex which makes the learning very easy!. Be sure to say each letter name as you play each note (until you have the notes completely memorized), that way you very quickly learn to recognize what the note is (by name and staff position) and not just where that note is played on the fingerboard.

#27

Learning to read music is, at best, a roundabout way to ‘memorize’ the fretboard. The quickest way to familiarize oneself with the fretboard is to play all the different types of multi-octave scales. To get up to speed fastest, use tablature to learn these scales. If you try to learn by ‘ear’, it will take much longer. And learning with standard notation is counter-productive. This is because standard notation doesn’t indicate which string and fret, among the multiple fretboard locations in which a particular note can be found, is the best.

For an adult who plays only the guitar, learning guitar with tablature is more efficient than using standard notation.

It would be nice if all kids had a musical education that included standard notation. But in this day and age, that’s not common. Standard notation is worthwhile and perhaps even necessary if you’re a multi-instrumentalist or if you want to understand theory. But for learning a single fretted instrument, it’s a luxury not a necessity.

#28

Hi Julian,

I must respectfully disagree with you about a few points.

— Begin quote from ____

Learning to read music is, at best, a roundabout way to ‘memorize’ the fretboard.

— End quote

If you are looking to memorize where the notes are on the fingerboard, it certainly is not a roundabout way to memorize.

— Begin quote from ____

And learning with standard notation is counter-productive. This is because standard notation doesn’t indicate which string and fret, among the multiple fretboard locations in which a particular note can be found, is the best.

— End quote

Of course, this depends on what you are reading. If you are reading a flute part, it will not contain any markings for a guitarist to use. But if you are playing classical guitar, fingerings (including which string and which finger to use on that string) are very often included in standard notation.

— Begin quote from ____

For an adult who plays only the guitar, learning guitar with tablature is more efficient than using standard notation.

— End quote

It may be easier to learn at first, but I do not believe it is better in the long run, especially when you move to styles or tunes of music that may not be tabbed. In fact, in many ways tablature is just a stepping stone to learning how to read notation.

— Begin quote from ____

It would be nice if all kids had a musical education that included standard notation. But in this day and age, that’s not common. Standard notation is worthwhile and perhaps even necessary if you’re a multi-instrumentalist or if you want to understand theory. But for learning a single fretted instrument, it’s a luxury not a necessity.

— End quote

Actually, learning to read standard notation is more accessible now than it ever has been. Go check out the musictheory.net website and you will find a simple method and interactive method for learning how to read notation and basic music theory. I teach a class of middle schoolers this information within a dozen or 2 classes, with no outside homework.

And I cannot agree that learning to read music is a luxury. It may not be necessary, but I would not go so far as to call it a luxury. Wes Montgomery could not read music, but most folks will never have his talent or ability. And you can learn all you need to know from using your ears, but why not learn to read music and speed up the process.

I routinely teach students all the notes in every position on the fingerboard in a matter of about 8 minutes. It takes another 6 minutes to show them where those notes are on the staff and how they correlate. At that point, they know where any note they see on the staff is played on the fingerboard. Don’t get me wrong, they are not stellar sight readers at that point, they just know where to find the notes they see on the staff. It takes practice to teach your fingers what your mind knows.

One other point, I have a very good friend who sight reads any and all music, like you or I might play a C chord. You can put a full orchestra score in from of him and he will sight reduce that score correctly for the guitar on first reading, often at tempo. Other than the fact that it is an impressive skill to witness, he is unlimited by any constraints on the choice of musical style or what instrument that music was originally written for. I know that he would not agree that learning to read music for a guitarist is a luxury, it is yet another tool to make you a better musician.

Can you be a great musician without learning to read music? Sure, but sometimes it is easier to set down the butter knife and use a screwdriver.

#29

Thanks for the reasoned food for thought. I certainly don’t want to discourage anyone from learning to read music. I can sight-read fiddle and mando music, thanks to my violin lessons when I was a kid. And I wouldn’t have it any other way. But my personal experience is that I’ve never felt the need to learn how to sight-read music intended for the guitar.

— Begin quote from ____

Of course, this depends on what you are reading. If you are reading a flute part, it will not contain any markings for a guitarist to use. But if you are playing classical guitar, fingerings (including which string and which finger to use on that string) are very often included in standard notation.

— End quote

These sorts of supplemental expediencies exist in music written for most instruments – especially that written for students. But, other than perhaps making it a bit difficult to tell which key a piece is in, guitar tab doesn’t need additions: it’s closer to being complete. As you know, guitar standard notation is not complete without some additional markup showing which string/fret to use.

Using the best fingering makes a huge difference in learning time. That’s why, for someone who wants to get familiar with the fretboard asap, I recommend cutting out the ‘standard notation middleman’ and using tab. (I can’t teach, so my recommendations are to be taken with a grain of salt.)

— Begin quote from ____

In fact, in many ways tablature is just a stepping stone to learning how to read notation.

— End quote

We all know why standard notation was developed back in the renaissance. But specialized tab’s never gone out of style, nor will it as long as people play fretted instruments. Just like a rhythm guitar player wouldn’t dream of using standard notation (when he can simply write out a chord chart), I wouldn’t try to show a novice the fingering for multi-octave scales using anything other than tab.

— Begin quote from ____

I do not believe (tablature) is better in the long run, especially when you move to styles or tunes of music that may not be tabbed.

— End quote

Ya got me there!

— Begin quote from ____

And I cannot agree that learning to read music is a luxury. It may not be necessary, but I would not go so far as to call it a luxury.

— End quote

I have the tendency to go overboard with my rhetoric. I’d encourage anyone who wants to better understand music to learn to read. But as I said, my recommendation for the novice who’s vacillating about whether it’s worth memorizing the fretboard’ is to get up to speed as quickly as possible using tabbed-out scales.

Thanks for the great info and explanations. I’m not an anti-intellectual, I just think there’s a time and a place for efficient rather than thorough. Of course, after spending close to a year learning how the basics of flatpicking, I have to admit that learning reading and theory isn’t really that big a chore.

#30

I think it’s great that you all can express your differing opinions without any hint of animosity. That’s awesome. I think you both make good points. I have sat on both sides of the fence. Like Julian I started out on violin (I was probably less than 10). I played a variety of instruments, I had two years of music theory. At that point in my life I knew theory well and could sight read several instruments (guitar was not included). I was around some incredible and complete musicians. Later I got into metal and blues and some of the most technically proficient people I played with couldn’t tell you what made a chord minor (other than the change in frets played). On the other hand, one person in particular from my area I remember was applying theory and innovative techniques to the guitar and was just taking things to another level (I haven’t seen him in 20 years, but he still is pushing the envelope today).

A bit later, I didn’t do much with music for about a decade, and when I got back in, it was acoustic guitar that I enjoyed. Aside from a brief foray into classical, I generally read tab. Admittedly, my classical guitar learning was severely hampered by my inability to sight read (I was working from standard notation and it was slow). But for the non-classical stuff, especially since I often played in alternate tunings, tab was a blessing. Did I know what notes I was playing in a song tuned to DADGAD? No, but I could figure it out if necessary. Right now I am enjoying learning to play bluegrass. I have picked up some BG theory along the way, but I have yet to dive in to really learning the fret board. Ben once made the comment that he started on piano and he almost sees the fret board like a piano. It struck me that I don’t have near that familiarity, and it’s a shortcoming that I plan to address at some point. I look forward to taking a stab at Doc’s blocks. Right now, I am primarily working on building up my BG chops and copying what other people play or have written out. I have my hands full with that alone (and I’m enjoying it).

Different people want differing things out of playing. Some just want to make some music while engaging the fewest brain cells… just play the guitar. Others want to be complete musicians and desire to understand everything they can. I think most people are somewhere in between. Knowing your guitar and music theory are fantastic. Tab is fantastic. They both have their strong points. One has a limitless ceiling, the other can get you learning songs within a couple minutes of picking up a guitar. In my opinion, both are valid paths to making music on a guitar. The relative value of both approaches depends on where you want to go with it.

Thanks for your great attitudes and for the thoughtful discussion.

#31

When I hear someone ask about fret board memorizing I think of things like being able to play the same notes on any string or being able to play music or melodies in different positions without having to think too much. In my mind just memorizing all the notes on all the strings would be just as difficult if not more difficult than sight reading. If I were told to play the same notes in another position, I’d definitely find it harder to do with TAB than notation. That said, I do use tab regularly. Definitely not saying don’t use tab or that because I read I’m a better player. I just think some things are definitely easier to do when you know how to read and have standard notation. One of them is knowing how to play things all over your fretboard.

#32

I think my head going to explode WOW,I had no idea!!! Thanks to all

#33

I have the fret board kind of mapped out with some holes in places I don’t play much. I have been meaning to work on it a bit. I came across an iPhone/iPad app that makes a game out of it (see how many notes you can recognize in a certain amount of time). Here’s a link:
justinguitar.com/en/AP-002-G … nerApp.php
I have enjoyed playing with it a few minutes at a time. I figure it’s a “better” way to waste my time at an airport than Angry Birds or Bad Piggies (and I am not knocking those… I spend a fair amount of time with both).
My only gripe is that sometimes it doesn’t seem real responsive. I have to whack on a note to get it to recognize at times. That could well be a problem with my phone. I haven’t tried it on iPad yet. Since I have been playing with it, some of the holes in my mapping are getting more solid.

All in all, well worth $1.99. I do wish you could set the tuning so I could use it for alternate tunings and/or other instruments.

#34

— Begin quote from "budman"

Ben I have seen this programs out there trying to sell u something on knowing the fretboard up and down the neck,but is this something u need to know as a beginner or is this something that comes over time.

— End quote

Many methods out there scales are a sure fire method and sight reading is another you actually learn how to strike 5 of the same notes at different places on the fret board . say some one says hit a C note and you just hit five different places with out thinking; of course that comes with time as everything does . It is a good way to learn the board , the sight reading gives a a place to start and a place to end. You can buy a scale showing all the notes on the board and you can pick out the notes one at a time and stay with say a C note until you can do them with out thinking a lot about it.Some never play past the fifth fret and do very well, time consuming yes , but you are the one who determines how much you want to put into playing . Good luck on all you do

#35

I can only comment on the way I have learned the fretboard (and there’s always more than one way to skin a cat), but I feel that sight reading has forced me to learn the notes of the fretboard better than playing scales or patterns ever would. After two years of daily reading (about 1/2 to 1 hour a day) I can plow through the first 5 positions (first 8 frets) pretty effortlessly.

It does take a lot of time, and I suspect there may be faster ways to learn the notes, but sight reading has the benefit of building other skills, too. My understanding of time signatures and my rhythmic accuracy in general have been greatly aided by sight reading. It’s also nice to be able to look at a piece of printed music and understand what’s going on.

#36

— Begin quote from "budman"

Ben I have seen this programs out there trying to sell u something on knowing the fretboard up and down the neck,but is this something u need to know as a beginner or is this something that comes over time.

— End quote

A lot of people do not play past the fifth fret but site reading is a good thing to learn to be able to strike five C notes at different places on the neck when the note is called out, it takes a lot of practice for sure, but I would remain concentrated on the first five frets just starting out you have so many basic things you need to learn. the fret board will become very familiar to you as you progress through your lessons . All good things come in time . Many tunes can be played out of the three frets and out of the chord pattern it is not funny .

#37

— Begin quote from "Banjo Ben"

Hey budman!

I am not familiar with a lot of these programs, but I’d have to say they surely wouldn’t hurt your playing. If anything they would help. But, are they worth the money? I don’t know. I’m actually working with an author right now on a resource called Fretboard Toolbox and we’ll be illustrating how the different notes in each key are found on the fretboard. That may be a while, but until then I’m sure there are some good ones. If there is one in particular, shoot the name/link to me in an email and I’ll check it out and let you know what I think. Thanks!

— End quote

I was in to sight reading for a short time but fell away from it. It is having someone call out one note and you hitting five of them as fast as you could , of course at different places on the fret board . it is an intense study to say the least . It would be great knowing where all the C notes or all the notes are on the board. You can also tune your ear to a A note for tuning purposes or was that purpoises LOL .