Developing Speed

[Jim_G]

Thanks Ben!

I took Mike’s suggestion to heart last night and was trying to keep from touching the top. I found that just taking the hand off the top naturally moved the wrist up over the top of the bridge. At the same time where the pick is striking the strings moved too, up which was nice because the tone is nicer up there. Now I just have to not lean too much on the bridge, but easier said than done at the moment. If I’m not touching something and not looking down at my right hand I tend to lose where I am. I am glad to hear a little bit of touching is okay.

[Dean]

I am finding that some of the teachers I have learned from are correct. SPEED is NOT IMPORTANT as compared to playing accurately and in time!! If you can play the song slowly and correctly and in time, then the speed will come. Timing is something I really struggle with, and the fact that I can play some parts of a song better than other parts, when they all need to be played at the same tempo. So, do I know the song as good as I like??? I have to practice the same song over and over again correctly in order to get faster.
I hope that makes sense.

[OrrinJ]

I’m new here and this is my first post.

My advice is: Don’t give up hope. I can remember complaining to my wife that I would never be able to play those fiddle tunes up to speed. But, low and behold, it all started to come together in time. Proper right hand technique is the key. I worked for two months constantly to break 20 years of bad technique in my right hand. It’s much better, but still not perfect. Look at Ben’s technique and try to emulate it. Keep loose - rigidity in your right hand kills speed. Pick from your wrist, and not your elbow. (OK, I know that Bill Monroe didn’t and Ricky Skaggs doesn’t, but in general, this is true). At the intermediate level and above, a Blue Chip pick will add about 10% or more to your speed. It just slips through the strings better than a cheap pick. Practice with a metronome. I had an old Zoom digital recorder that you could program rhythm tracks into and then play back at variable speeds without changing the pitch. I worked with this for several months and it improved my speed greatly. Try to find jamming partners that are a little more (or a lot more) advanced than you are, so you feel challenged to improve. And most of all: Practice, Practice, Practice. Keep the faith. It will come together. OrrinJ

[verneq]

Kudos on posting the video. I would note that when I took a harsh mando lesson in person the teacher noted a couple things ) 1) work tone and accuracy first then speed up 2) but if all it took was a metronome and notching it up a little each day everyone would be Chris Thile ( ouch but true). 3) exaggerate correct form early.

So when saw your video (and mike pointed this out) you are using your thumb and for finger of your pick hand to bring the pick across the string. (As mike noted a la tony rice). This is good for sutalty not speed. For speed focus on wrist movement, humans can move there wrists up and down faster, longer and more accurately than there thumb.( I say human since Rice is out of this world) Try playing a tunes and scales with only wrist movement only.

On the palm thing some players ( Adam Steffy and Tim Obrien) plant their pinky on the pick guard or in that area while picking to avoid the palm on the bridge issue, some don’t? But FYI

Check out Thile and Marshall on fishers horn pipe. 1) when they are flying their thumb and forefinger are relatively still and their wrist is doing the work 2) also notice marshall brings his pinky down a la Steffy but Thile doesn’t hmmm? 3) both their hands are relaxed 4)black skateboard shoes make you a better mandolin player
… “Money, It’s gotta be the shoes” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkY7W6kCRY4

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afzl3A8o7vE[/video]

[mreisz]

Wow. I didn’t know Mike Marshall had that gear.

[Jim_G]

Hey thanks Dean, Vern, and Orrin! I have been trying to get the correct position with the hand ever since Mike first pointed it. It’s hard to unlearn bad habits! Part of my problem is the instrument flops around a little and I’m trying to keep it still. It’s an A, obviously, but I also almost always play standing up, even when home practicing. My back couldn’t take being hunched over like Marshall and Thile for very long. Maybe I need to punch another hole in the strap to tighten it up.

Somewhere early on I picked up the idea that you should be keeping the arm and wrist movement to a minimum. Guess I better rethink that. I am constantly watching what others are doing on videos these days though, and I’ll get there I’m sure. Give up? No chance. We all know people who get an instrument, pick at it for a couple of weeks, and that’s it. I’m not one of those guys. It does sound like I need new sneakers though. I never considered that my red Chuck Taylors might be holding me back.

[mreisz]

Hey Jim! You are right, a mandolin doesn’t seem inherently stable. A shorter strap helps. Also another thing I did which helped me out is an arm rest. I suspect some (maybe many) mandolin players consider it a crutch or whatever. For me… whatever works to get me playing better is a good thing. Interestingly, I have it on one mandolin, but haven’t felt the need to have it on the other. I think getting used to my arm steadying the mando near the rim with the armrest transferred to any that I play now. Here’s the one I got:
hillcountrystringworks.com/armrest5.html
They are custom set up for your instrument’s depth. Doug seems to be a genuinely good guy. For about $40 it’s worth a shot.

I want to reiterate… I think you’ve got a great foundation. Things will loosen up as you keep playing and you’ll keep getting better, smoother and have easier speed. I look forward to seeing an update video in a few months

[mreisz]

Jim… I was just watching your video again and my wife walked in. She asked, is that Ben?
That’s pretty high praise if you ask me. I figured I’d pass it along.

[mreisz]

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if all it took was a metronome and notching it up a little each day everyone would be Chris Thile ( ouch but true)

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Well that just burst my bubble! At least I have hope with some black skate shoes. Like Jim, I have Chuck Taylors, but I can spring for some Vans if that’s what it takes. Seriously though, great comments. Jim is getting a bunch of great suggestions. The cool thing is that everyone who reads them can benefit. Thanks for all the suggestions!

[verneq]

Jim

If it makes you feel any better I have/had the same not using my wrist enough problem and struggle with it.I played a lot in front if a mirror which helped, and when trying to unlearn bad habits try on simple stuff you know really well at first.

As for mando movement, “it’s hard to judge someone kneeling in their kitchen” ( sounds profound/eastern when I put it in quotes) but try messing with the strap. I know a lot of people who use the arm rest, and if that helps by all means. In jams I go to people don’t think of it as a crutch but the mando community writ large is a funny bunch ( mention a capo in the same sentence as Bill Monroe on Mandolin Cafe and sit back watch the fire works)

[Jim_G]

Okay, I don’t know if Mike has great speakers which are enhancing the aural experience or bad ones, which level the playing field. Or maybe it’s just that a Collings almost play itself, even when the driver is challenged. Whatever the reason, thanks to the Missus !

I’ve watched that Marshall/Thile video a few more times, and I think I need to stop watching Thile altogther, since he’s not human. (Plus only a non-human can get away with some of those facial expressions. I did that it would turn into a comedy show). Mostly he has the wrist going, but once in a while he’s doing it all with the the thumb and finger. Mike Marshall has the wrist thing that a mortal needs to user going all the way through the tune. I guess that I can make that distinction is a step.

And yes, hope some of this helps others, and I think Mike had a great suggestion way back when this thread first started, taping yourself, even if you don’t share it, is a very helpful tool.

[Jim_G]

Very quiet around here, at least in the mandolin part of the site. Guess I’ll drop another video in for no particular reason. I’ll throw in my head, no charge!

We had a Labor Day party at our new house this past weekend, and did a little picking. Still struggling with my right hand. Strumming chords, I think I’m okay, but as soon as I go to a break I’m back to doing it all with the thumb and forefinger:

I’m not sure Yankees should be singing Prine tunes, but that’s a topic for another day…

[mreisz]

Jim, that looks much different to me. For one thing, you have a head

Seriously, when you are picking stuff out in the solo your wrist looks more elevated and much more relaxed than in the previous video. Looks and sounds great to me. I think your are on the right track. Keep at it!

You all did a great job with the song and I enjoyed it. Thanks for posting it. When I was growing up I lived in central KY and one set of grandparents was in in western KY. When we went to visit them we’d drive down through Muhlenburg county and we’d typically start singing this song. There were still big dig projects going on and we’d see some of the giant “shovels” at work on other projects. They were absolutely huge. The road was miles away from them, but you could still make them out clearly.

[anon4383930]

Enjoyed that Jim, thanks for posting it. That’s my favorite way to jam, front/back - porch/deck pickin’.

[Jim_G]

Thanks Mike and Bulldog! I’ve never been to any part of KY, but have loved that song for years. And playing outside on my back porch is now my new favorite thing in the world to do.

[verneq]

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when you are picking stuff out in the solo your wrist looks more elevated and much more relaxed

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I concur!

As for a Yankee singing Prine, It is probably just me but I gotta say ( as someone who grew up on the CT coast) your rhythm is very New England ( in a good way) you all have almost a sea shanty/ Connecticut drinking tune thing going on.

For reference here are two examples :
Up and Away http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjdRVI0sZ74
Harbo and Samuelson (tune starts at about the 1:00 ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16uSphznM5I

And that thing she is playing is a hurry gurdy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy

[mreisz]

Hey Jim,
Do you have the lyrics for Muhlenburg County typed up? You put this song in my head and as a result I was playing it with my wife the other night (with her on mando!). I did alot of mumbling through lyrics. “Yeah the coal cars they came with the world’s largest shovel, they torched all the timber and stripped all the land. They wrote it all down in a blah blah blah blah… dooo dee dum dee dumm de de dumm do be dooooo.” Now I gotta go get the lyrics one way or another.

[Jim_G]

Thanks Vern.

Mike ®, I might be mishearing the lyrics. That yankee thing. But I do have all of Prine’s records, every last one. And I play about 10 of his tunes, mostly on guitar, so you might’ve been away from KY too long?!? . It’s “the coal company came …” And (this one I might’ve blown it not you) “they tortured the timber”. Torched does seem to make more sense. It all works though.

The name of the song is ‘Paradise’ link here: azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnprine/paradise.html The title might’ve made it tough to google it.

Edit: My, I babble alot. Same way in real life I’m afraid.

[mreisz]

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so you might’ve been away from KY too long?!?

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Yep I was wrong and/or missing on most of the lyrics. It’s been a long time since I was singing that one as a kid. Thanks for the link.

[Jim_G]

— Begin quote from "verneq"

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And that thing she is playing is a hurry gurdy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy_gurdy

— End quote

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Yup, there’s a great band called Le Vent du Nord from Quebec that I’ve seen several times that uses a hurdy gurdy to great effect.