I saw that too, Mike. It definately makes you want to try it out. I like how they both smile (bout 1:27) and it looks like Jim Hurst says “that’s fast”.
Developing Speed
I saw that look as well. I bet they were thinking something along the lines of “that whippersnapper is pretty impressive.”
I guess except for one person, there’s always someone faster.
Phew, there’s alot to digest here. I’ll try to get my wife to use her iPad to make a short video of my playing. Won’t happen this weekend b/c we’re having friends over for dinner tomorrow, and family for Easter on Sunday, but later next week for sure.
Seems I am going to have to dust off my metronome, you’re all talking BPM’s. My tapping foot and head have 3 speeds: slow, medium, and crash-and-burn, but no clue what those would be in BPM’s.
I found this little nugget from Banjo Ben in the banjos forum ( https://banjoebenclark.com/forum/t/how-do-you-build-speed/545/6 ) - That whole discussion might be of benefit to all looking for speed on any instrument.
— Begin quote from "Banjo Ben"
…I find that to build speed, I have to not only spend time playing with quality, but quantity as well. In other words, I think you build speed better by playing for long periods of time at a slower tempo. I often play my “fastest” after I’ve been playing mid-tempo tunes for an hour or so. If I try to push it before that, I’ll play sloppy and uneven.
— End quote
I personally find that speed is only built for me when I play along with a metronome. But I know not everyone uses those.
— Begin quote from "TNTaylor414"
His idea was that the forearm is a bigger muscle than the wrist or fingers and it would not fatigue as quickly.
— End quote
When I was learning to play clawhammer banjo, the guy I learned from said the exact same thing re: striking the banjo strings. He said something like you can play all day if you use proper technique (which comes from rotation of the forearm), but if you try to ‘muscle’ it with only your hands, you will fatigue in 15 minutes and start missing strings, and you won’t even realize why you are missing.
I have not been able to get it together as far as getting my wife to record me playing. Too much going on, and now I’m fighting a bug. Here’s a lousy selfie I did pretty much right away after Mike’s initial suggestion. , But I’m sitting on my knees, which is not optimal but I was having trouble propping her iPad up any other way:
dropbox.com/s/1d34iportmvjr … .18.57.mov
I’ll try to get her to record, from different angles, sometime soon. And this video I suspect I’ll delete and burn after about a week too. I don’t think I can play it any faster than this, it sort of works at this speed too I guess, but it really should be at least 50% faster and I don’t know how to get there from here.
Thanks for any tips. Heckling is fine too.
Shouldn’t be responding to myself, but I just watched this for the first time since I recorded it. I definitely have to stop all that upper body movement, it’s a nervous habit. But it also looks like I’m not striking both strings in the course at times.
Hey Jim,
Please take my suggestions as only that… suggestions. What I suggest may very well not work for you, and for that matter, I might just be giving bad advice. With that said, these are things that I see in your playing:
That’s a great song and I like your tone and playing. You have a really great foundation. I didn’t look at your left hand much, but when I did I immediately noticed we both have thumb joints that allow our thumb to bend backwards. Maybe we share some common ancestors 
We also share a common bad habit (at least what I consider to be a bad habit). When practicing a song that is memorized, if I mess up, I tend to want to quickly pause and redo the section I messed up. The reason I think it is a bad habit is that it ingrains a behavior that you can’t do while playing in a group. It is taking me a long time to undo that habit and I may never be free of it. I figured I’d mention it in case it wasn’t something you were aware you were doing. Playing with a metronome or a backing track helps me eliminate that tendency because just like playing with others, the tune is going to go on and we don’t have the luxury of redoing bits. Everybody makes mistakes. It seems that the high level players don’t even “miss a beat” when they do… they just keep plugging away. If you don’t own one there are free online metronomes which work just fine. I don’t always play with a metronome or backing track, but it is helpful to do at times.
I was primarily looking at your right hand. You use your finger and thumb motion great. It looks alot like Tony Rice’s movement (although not quite as exaggerated). Overall, your right hand looks tight. I know that’s not particularly helpful in and of itself. A couple things to try to loosen it.
- Loosen your pick grip as much as you can. Altering how you hold the pick so that there is more skin in contact allows one to grip looser, but still hold on.
- I notice for me that when I play rhythm, my right hand is looser. I am trying to make my picking out of melody right hand technique more like my rhythm technique. At times I can get the feel of it and it seems to help. Perhaps try looking at what you are doing when playing rhythm as visual guide to looseness.
- It looks like your arm is about flat against the mandolin top and then your wrist bends backwards to get the picking hand over the strings. To a certain extent, I do the same (bending the wrist backwards) and it’s probably hurting both of us as it leads to tension. To demonstrate this, hold your hand in front of you like you like you are going to shake hands. Rotate your wrist up and down a little (no problem). Now bend your wrist back and do the same rotation… I can feel the tension all the way through my elbow. To correct this, try raising your wrist up so that the back of your wrist is about flat.
Any time there are mechanical changes, it takes some time to get used to them. Slow down just a tad for a while until you can easily play whatever it is you are playing. In fact, if at all possible, eliminate speed as a concern. Just try to focus on eliminating tension and then worry about tone and evenness. Whenever I have speed as a goal I tend to revert to whatever form I have learned over the years (and it’s self defeating). Work on playing with a looser hand and playing a song as smooth and fluid as you can, and the speed will just happen. I don’t expect it to happen overnight, as it never has for me. With that said, I hope it does happen quickly for you.
Again, take all I said with a grain of salt. I suspect you will get some great advice from others who post here.
Best of luck to you!
Thanks Mike!
I use my thumb often when I’m playing guitar to fret notes on the low E, maybe I loosened something up along the way. I’ll have to go back and watch the video again from home tonight.
I was aware of the stop, restart habit. But I’m good about not doing that with both my band, and if I’m playing along to a backing track. It only seems to happen when I’m solo, and no one else is around to listen. That video was never intended to see the light of day, so it was like I was alone. I have an old zoom h4 recorder, I should probably record a couple of backing tracks to play this song along too. I have no hope of playing along at Ben’s third speed on that, but I can probably go faster than his second speed.
I was wondering about the way I was resting against the top. That’s going to take me a long time to unlearn that. I was kind of hoping you’d have something for me that didn’t involve patience and self discipline! Kidding, thanks so much for the tips!
-Jim G.
— Begin quote from "Jim_G"
I use my thumb often when I’m playing guitar to fret notes on the low E, maybe I loosened something up along the way. I’ll have to go back and watch the video again from home tonight.
— End quote
Me too. Most notably for an F chord or the F# of a D/F#. I can bend my thumb backwards about 90 degrees (and have been able to since I was a kid). I think a “normal” thumb doesn’t do that.
Thanks Ben!
I took Mike’s suggestion to heart last night and was trying to keep from touching the top. I found that just taking the hand off the top naturally moved the wrist up over the top of the bridge. At the same time where the pick is striking the strings moved too, up which was nice because the tone is nicer up there. Now I just have to not lean too much on the bridge, but easier said than done at the moment. If I’m not touching something and not looking down at my right hand I tend to lose where I am. I am glad to hear a little bit of touching is okay.
I am finding that some of the teachers I have learned from are correct. SPEED is NOT IMPORTANT as compared to playing accurately and in time!! If you can play the song slowly and correctly and in time, then the speed will come. Timing is something I really struggle with, and the fact that I can play some parts of a song better than other parts, when they all need to be played at the same tempo. So, do I know the song as good as I like??? I have to practice the same song over and over again correctly in order to get faster.
I hope that makes sense.
I’m new here and this is my first post.
My advice is: Don’t give up hope. I can remember complaining to my wife that I would never be able to play those fiddle tunes up to speed. But, low and behold, it all started to come together in time. Proper right hand technique is the key. I worked for two months constantly to break 20 years of bad technique in my right hand. It’s much better, but still not perfect. Look at Ben’s technique and try to emulate it. Keep loose - rigidity in your right hand kills speed. Pick from your wrist, and not your elbow. (OK, I know that Bill Monroe didn’t and Ricky Skaggs doesn’t, but in general, this is true). At the intermediate level and above, a Blue Chip pick will add about 10% or more to your speed. It just slips through the strings better than a cheap pick. Practice with a metronome. I had an old Zoom digital recorder that you could program rhythm tracks into and then play back at variable speeds without changing the pitch. I worked with this for several months and it improved my speed greatly. Try to find jamming partners that are a little more (or a lot more) advanced than you are, so you feel challenged to improve. And most of all: Practice, Practice, Practice. Keep the faith. It will come together. OrrinJ
Kudos on posting the video. I would note that when I took a harsh mando lesson in person the teacher noted a couple things ) 1) work tone and accuracy first then speed up 2) but if all it took was a metronome and notching it up a little each day everyone would be Chris Thile ( ouch but true). 3) exaggerate correct form early.
So when saw your video (and mike pointed this out) you are using your thumb and for finger of your pick hand to bring the pick across the string. (As mike noted a la tony rice). This is good for sutalty not speed. For speed focus on wrist movement, humans can move there wrists up and down faster, longer and more accurately than there thumb.( I say human since Rice is out of this world) Try playing a tunes and scales with only wrist movement only.
On the palm thing some players ( Adam Steffy and Tim Obrien) plant their pinky on the pick guard or in that area while picking to avoid the palm on the bridge issue, some don’t? But FYI
Check out Thile and Marshall on fishers horn pipe. 1) when they are flying their thumb and forefinger are relatively still and their wrist is doing the work 2) also notice marshall brings his pinky down a la Steffy but Thile doesn’t hmmm? 3) both their hands are relaxed 4)black skateboard shoes make you a better mandolin player
… “Money, It’s gotta be the shoes” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkY7W6kCRY4
Wow. I didn’t know Mike Marshall had that gear.
Hey thanks Dean, Vern, and Orrin! I have been trying to get the correct position with the hand ever since Mike first pointed it. It’s hard to unlearn bad habits! Part of my problem is the instrument flops around a little and I’m trying to keep it still. It’s an A, obviously, but I also almost always play standing up, even when home practicing. My back couldn’t take being hunched over like Marshall and Thile for very long. Maybe I need to punch another hole in the strap to tighten it up.
Somewhere early on I picked up the idea that you should be keeping the arm and wrist movement to a minimum. Guess I better rethink that. I am constantly watching what others are doing on videos these days though, and I’ll get there I’m sure. Give up? No chance. We all know people who get an instrument, pick at it for a couple of weeks, and that’s it. I’m not one of those guys. It does sound like I need new sneakers though. I never considered that my red Chuck Taylors might be holding me back.
Hey Jim! You are right, a mandolin doesn’t seem inherently stable. A shorter strap helps. Also another thing I did which helped me out is an arm rest. I suspect some (maybe many) mandolin players consider it a crutch or whatever. For me… whatever works to get me playing better is a good thing. Interestingly, I have it on one mandolin, but haven’t felt the need to have it on the other. I think getting used to my arm steadying the mando near the rim with the armrest transferred to any that I play now. Here’s the one I got:
hillcountrystringworks.com/armrest5.html
They are custom set up for your instrument’s depth. Doug seems to be a genuinely good guy. For about $40 it’s worth a shot.
I want to reiterate… I think you’ve got a great foundation. Things will loosen up as you keep playing and you’ll keep getting better, smoother and have easier speed. I look forward to seeing an update video in a few months 
Jim… I was just watching your video again and my wife walked in. She asked, is that Ben?
That’s pretty high praise if you ask me. I figured I’d pass it along.
— Begin quote from "verneq"
if all it took was a metronome and notching it up a little each day everyone would be Chris Thile ( ouch but true)
— End quote
Well that just burst my bubble! At least I have hope with some black skate shoes. Like Jim, I have Chuck Taylors, but I can spring for some Vans if that’s what it takes. Seriously though, great comments. Jim is getting a bunch of great suggestions. The cool thing is that everyone who reads them can benefit. Thanks for all the suggestions!
Jim
If it makes you feel any better I have/had the same not using my wrist enough problem and struggle with it.I played a lot in front if a mirror which helped, and when trying to unlearn bad habits try on simple stuff you know really well at first.
As for mando movement, “it’s hard to judge someone kneeling in their kitchen” ( sounds profound/eastern when I put it in quotes) but try messing with the strap. I know a lot of people who use the arm rest, and if that helps by all means. In jams I go to people don’t think of it as a crutch but the mando community writ large is a funny bunch ( mention a capo in the same sentence as Bill Monroe on Mandolin Cafe and sit back watch the fire works)