Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Time to Put it To Use

#1

Well it’s official, post away on questions. I’m an “intermediate” myself on theory but can help the beginner.

I have a question and that is about the Diminished 7th in the major scale, anyone care to elaborate on where that gets used if anywhere? Isn’t changing the major 5th to a 7 chord the same as playing the diminished chord? For instance if I am majoring in G and in my progression I go to a D chord then I go to the D7 before going back to G…isn’t that D7 the same as an F#dim?

Please explain this diminished chord for me and it’s application.

Oldhat

#2

from Answers.com:

Diminished chords are very cool, and easy to understand. Diminished chords serve a cadential function just like a dominant 7. Let’s look at a dominant 7 chord construction in the key of C:

In the key of c the dominant chord would be a G

Chord tones: G B D

T make it a dominant 7 add the F:

Chord Tones: G B D F

look at the diminished chord in the key of C which would be a B Diminished:

Chord tones: B D F

To make it a diminished 7 or a minor 7b5 which is how it is most commonly referred to add the a

Chord tones: B D F A

Read more: wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_d … z22JcrwT48

1 Like
#3

Um so in the case of majoring out of C then you could call the D minor a Bdim if add in a B to it?

I am still a bit lost on this diminished chord in the major scale and it’s use…has anyone every used it in a song before? What genres does the diminished chord show up in or where does it raise it’s head at?

Also the D7 I mentioned earlier out of G is a diminished only if I add a Flat 6th (Eb/D#) in replace of the open D. SO the diminished ends of being the 7th of the 5th with a flated 6th.

confused anyone?

Oldhat

#4

“Um so in the case of majoring out of C then you could call the D minor a Bdim if add in a B to it?”
Based on what Dave posted, I think that is right. I guess the “correct” term for the chord is similar to whether you call something an F# or a Gflat depending on what key you are in.

#5

Found this to be and interesting watch on the Diminished chord:

#6

Very cool… since the intervals are all m3s, it makes sense that you can move a minor third and have the same chord with a different inversion.

So I grab an Adim7 on the top four strings (a D7 shape with a sharpened root on the fourth fret). I start moving up in m3s. Then I get to the 13th fret… hmmm I thought an octave lower we were calling that a D#dim7. It is! It seems that each dim7 chord is actually inversions of 4 chords.
So, make a D7, and then make the root a D#. Your notes are (from low note to high) D# A C F#. Since the intervals between each note are minor thirds, any one of the notes could be the root. So this one chord serves as D#dim7, Adim7, Cdim7 AND F#dim7.

If they said that in the vid, I missed it (I was playing with the guitar while it was rolling), but that’s another cool finding. If you are looking for the right dim7 to play, just pick any of them… you have a 1 in 3 chance it will be correct :slight_smile:

#7

You were asking about examples. Playing around with it reminded me of a song I have used it in. Basically it’s in D, and the bass note walks down then back up to go to the 5 chord. The song is KY Waltz.
All this would happen during the normal time for the 1 chord: D (bass walks down to C#) F#m/C# (down to B) Bm (down to A) D/A (now it goes back to a regular D) D (up to D#) Cdim7 (up to an E) A/E

That’s a cool little progression. I need to pull that one back out and play it some. When I find it again, I’ll credit where I got it.

If the description doesn’t make sense, I’ll provide some chord charts.

#8

BTW, Jesse, thanks for posting the question. I feel like I have a new toy :slight_smile:

#9

— Begin quote from "mreisz"

since the intervals are all m3s, it makes sense that you can move a minor third and have the same chord with a different inversion.

— End quote

Augmented chords work the same way. The root can be named on any string and you get a different inversion by moving a major third.

#10

Good deal Larry. I knew that Berklee course you took would come in handy!

#11

Nice Youtube find, Oldhat. That video pretty much sums up everything I know. Changing one note of a dim7 = Dominant 7 was news to me.
Mreisz, I also like your idea of a 1 in 3 chance of hitting the right dim7, funny. If you do hit the wrong dim7 chord you could slide it up or down a fret and your odds would be 50/50!

As far as the “usage” knowledge I have to chip in, the dim7 creates tension like the Dominant 7. That’s why you can substitute like they explain in the video.
In the Key of G major, the D7 wants to resolve back to G (V7 to I.)
The F# dim7 REALLY wants to go back to G (vii dim7 to 1.)
If you look at the chord top down( as per the D7-ish shape with the D# on the fourth string on the guitar):
F# wants to go to G
C wants to go to B
A wants to go to G (or B it’s caught in between)
D# wants to go to D

Since Em is the the relative minor of G, it also can create tension to go to Em. That D# can want to go to E as well. So if you’re playing G and an Em is coming up, your could whip out the F#dim7 and to walk it down to Em, or play a lick with those chord tones and create tension to set up that Em.
You can also use that dim7 to set up a Key change ( like G#dim7 to A)

#12

Thanks for the replies guys! Something tells me all of us messed around with the “absolute coolness” of the diminished chord on our geetars today!

That youtube video really done it for me, throw in your $0.02 worth Mike and KGM’s analysis and I think I’ve got my head wrapped around it.

Is always cool to learn something new in music that you thought you couldn’t figure out on your own…between Youtube and folks on this site I’d say there isn’t much that would go unanswered

Oldhat - Proud owner of a bran’ new view on diminished chords with a belly full of chic-fil-a - fat and happy!

#13

— Begin quote from "Oldhat"

Oldhat - Proud owner of a bran’ new view on diminished chords with a belly full of chic-fil-a - fat and happy!

— End quote

Doh! I got busy and didn’t make it to Chick-Fil-A. Dang it!
This forum is pretty neat. There are a bunch of good people on here.

#14

There was something bothering me so I went back to check…
Earlier the Answers.com answer had about making a Bdim7:
"To make it a diminished 7 or a minor 7b5 which is how it is most commonly referred to add the A

Chord tones: B D F A"

Did I pick a bad day to stop sniffing glue, or should that be a G#? If I am not crazy, then never mind my earlier post about “Beautiful Dreamer.” I was keying my dim7 form off the A and was actually playing a Cdim7 (which fits lovely). My later post about KY waltz, I was keying off the bottom note, so that a valid progression.

Furthermore, I don’t think a Bdim7 (has a G#) is the same as a Bm7b5 (has an A). Maybe I should go back to my glue sniffing.

If I am not crazy, I’ll go back and remove the Beautiful Dreamer example to prevent others from being confused in the future.

#15

I seen that problem when I thought about it but decided not to say anything in fear of being the “local idiot”…I mean I asked the question so I’m the dumb one anyway…I’m rambling…yes the “answers.com” answer was wrong…go figure!

I just didn’t say anything as I was not sure about the Dim chord at that point!

Oldhat

#16

Thanks Jesse! It’s nice to know I wasn’t the only crazy one :slight_smile:
I removed my beautiful dreamer example.
Thanks again for the original question. I learned some stuff today.

#17

— Begin quote from "KGM"

If you do hit the wrong dim7 chord you could slide it up or down a fret and your odds would be 50/50!

— End quote

I love it. :laughing: I think my technique might be to always make the chord in the same place and then just slide up or down until it feels right. Some might think I am just being stylish (instead of blindly searching for something).

#18

I just always repeat any mistake and they believe I meant it; my own interpretation ya know!

#19

Mreisz, you’re not sniffing glue. You’re on the right track. There’s two different chords at work here.
The m7(flat 5) and the dim7. What’s the difference? I wasn’t sure. I had to look it up.
In the key of G a F#m7(flat 5) chord is:
F#, A, C, E
In the key of G a F#dim7 chord is:
F#, A, C, D#

They’re both dim chords but why does one have an E and the other a D#?
The m7(flat 5) is a diminished chord based on the seventh note (F#) of a (G) major scale.
The dim7 is a diminished chord based on the second note(F#) of a (E) minor HARMONIC scale ( that’s where that D# comes from)
G major and E NATURAL minor are relative. So when you bring a note from the HARMONIC minor to the relative major, it sounds pretty cool and out there.

#20

Thanks KGM,
After reading it a few times, it sunk in. Thanks again!