Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

The 9 Pound Hammer

#61

Mike I think the mando break is fine. I think with your mando break and my guitar break following the melody line pretty closely and only going at 200 bpm then there is not that much “flash” in there…now crank it up to 240 or 250 and our breaks would sound “flashy”.

I seen how you laid out the song/breaks. Fell free to move my guitar break position around to the front somewhere since I followed the melody line and let someone else have a later break if they want to get off the melody some and jam.

#62

Hey Jesse,
I think you are right, you generally want straighter ones earlier. As far as moving things around, I suspect we won’t know exactly until we hear the various breaks. The reason I put Ben’s mando break immediately following another break was I figured he’d probably want to get it “out there” pretty good. The layout was just something to get the discussion going on it and see how many breaks/verses we were looking at. I am certainly not trying to own it. Typically we get a scratch track going and then we kind of lock into it. Maybe by planning things out ahead of time we can throw in some variances (like the hard stop I suggested going into verse 1).

As far as the mando part I put up being pretty close to the melody, that’s just how I typically think. I think kind of like “carry the melody, fill with a lick, repeat.” I can get stuff more out there, but I have to make an effort to do it, it doesn’t come natural. What I did on Lonesome Fiddle Blues was probably as out there as I have been. I think guys like Sam Bush (or if you don’t mind and instrument switch, Clarence, Tony or Bela) just think different. I’m just not that exciting of a person… I wear T shirts, I drive a truck, I’d just as soon eat a good hamburger as some fancy french food.

That was some cool info on the coal and your grandpa. I too remember when the general population still had access to dynamite. It made stump removal a cause for a party. Unless I am getting my memories crossed, after my grandpa died they found some very very old dynamite in his shed. They were afraid to move it and called the police to have them get rid of it.

#63

MIke I can’t remember much about my childhood at that young of an age (0-4 years) but things like dynamite going off is something that sticks in ones head! I mean what could be cooler when you are maybe 3-4 years old? It was a big deal and likewise a cause for a family gathering…BOOM!

I guess our grandfathers (Mine was born in 1903) was the last of the “salt of the earth” guys. He was a hell fire and brimstone southern baptist (minus the snakes) preacher that carried around a flask of whiskey, started chewing tobacco when he was 8 years old, was on’ry, and lived to be 89 years old.

I played and sung “Hard Times Come Again No More” at my moms house one day when we were working on that tune…Mom said “Your grandfather used to walk around singing that back in the day”. I guess that is why I have a personal connection to bluegrass"ish" stuff. You and I pretty much come from that area, me right outside of Ashland Ky in Ohio and you from your area of Kentucky…lots of redneck blood in our bones!

Another cool thing and totally off subject that I will share. My mom is a genealogy buff…She was able to prove that she was the sole survivor /heir to a great great great uncle and was able to go to the state of West Virginia and claim her uncles civil war medals. Most of the Southern Ohio and Northern Ky men had to go fight for West Virginia. She went to the “vault” where they had stored this stuff and took delivery. Looked like brand new medals as they had been stored in the vault for all those years, still had the hand writing on the side of the little box with his name and a ribbon around it…was cool. When I asked why he never went and got it himself her reply was “Once the boys came home they would of had to walk 100 miles to WVa to go claim their metals so they never claimed them”. To note was that these medals were the 1st official medals “struck” by the state of WVa.

My sister and I decided to re-use the family names from this uncle. He was named Aden, his wife was Westena and they had a son and daughter named Elias and Annika. No one in the family ever used those names so my sister called her 1st born boy Aden and I named my kids Westena, Annika, and Elias.

#64

I have friends in Ashland (and Flatwood). I like that area. I grew up in Danville, and my wife a bit south of you in SE KY (Allen). Yep, I’m a hillbilly/redneck whatever you want to call me.

Cool story on the medals. I like the names. They are all interesting names. I don’t know that I have heard of someone named Westena before. Was that perhaps a last name at some point in the past?

#65

I just heard from Ben. He said he’s up for whatever is needed, but mentioned a banjo break would be good. I thought a banjo and a mandolin solo from him would be great, and asked if he would close it out with one of those breaks (his choice). Dave, do you mind playing fiddle? Also, no one has signed up for banjo rhythm, would you want that?

Anyone else want a break (or a double length break)? We can put one in easily now, but once we get the backing tracks down it gets more difficult.

#66

Thanks for the “number 9 coal” explanation, oldhat. That makes perfect sense to me.

All you dynamite wielding hillbillies would be considered terrorists today. :smiley:

That’s a cool story about the Civil War medals, oldhat. It’s surprising some other relative hadn’t grabbed them years ago. I don’t have any direct forebears who fought in the Civil War (my great, great granddad was a bit too young) but I have a great, great, great uncle (I think that’s the right number of greats) who was captured at the Battle of Chickamauga, near Chattanooga, and never heard from again.

You are mighty organized, mreiz. I like it! If we’ve decided on 200 bpm, I believe I might rework my dobro break a little. The break I’ve been practicing is pretty close to the melody, but I might be able to wander off a little at that pace.

#67

I think there was a general consensus that 200 was the speed. I won’t even vote, because chopping on the mando is one thing I can usually keep up with. If it gets too fast I can just chop one note every 4th beat or maybe even every other measure.

Anyone prefer something different (or even as offered previously, we can do 2 versions)?

#68

mIke, I can do the fiddle if you’d like.

Rhythm banjo? Are you referring to playing back-up, or pinching during a mando solo? just let me know what you want and I’ll give it my best shot.

If I am kicking this with the fiddle I would prefer 8 clicks before the rhythm guitar starts.

#69

Alright Fiddlewood! That sounds great for the fiddle. We can get you clicks to start it (see more below on initial scratch track thoughts).

As far as the banjo, I was referring to back-up. With that said what will sound good will kind of depend on how the rest of the rhythm tracks go. If you want to wait until we get the basic rhythm track down and then see if you find anything you want to do with it, that’s great. I don’t have a particular sound in my mind or anything. Also, if you wanted to do a banjo break as well, I think that’s great. Just let us know if you do.

Jesse mentioned moving things around to get things that stray from the melody more towards the end. Anyone have any preferences on where their breaks go? Larry said he might get a bit more out there with his. We could swap Jesse and Larry. However, that would put the two guitars back to back, so maybe we move Jesse to break 2, Larry to break 3 and JW to break 5? To avoid having to scroll back, I’ll put the order here with the updated changes:
(Break 1) Dave: fiddle kickoff and break
-perhaps a hard stop on 1 before the vox kicks in?
Ozi Vox: traditional first verse (is a little to heavy for my size)
(Break 2)Jesse: GTR
Ozi Vox: Long way to Hazard verse
(Break 3)Larry: Dobro
(Break 4)Ben: banjo or mando
Ozi Vox: Up on the mountain verse
(Break 5)JW: GTR
Ozi Vox: Make my tombstone verse
(Break 6)Ben: banjo or mando break and then ending lick
Any suggestions on the above?

Let me say this in advance of the following paragraph… if I am over thinking this, just tell me so :smiley: With that said, I think we can know enough about who is doing what to where we can lay out the project pretty specifically. We can know how it starts, where the vocal verses are, where the various breaks are, etc. I am thinking about playing around with some different endings (what the rhythm instruments are doing under the lead instrument at the end) and seeing what seems to work with the tempo. I can make simple recordings to see if you all like any of them. We can lay out a scratch track incorporating all those elements and then have everything to where people can record them in the right spot. Does anyone have any ideas on things to do as far as dynamics, syncopation, stops, accents (hits), whatever else? The only one I suggested was a hard stop on 1 of the measure where the first VOX verse starts (and we all come back in on the 1 of “Well the 9 pound hammer.” The point of this long rambling paragraph is that I am thinking if we can get as much of the details built in to initial tracks as possible, the better it will be. Again, if I am over thinking this, just let me know.

#70

Looks good to me, Mike. I appreciate your making the effort to think this out. If no one took the initiative, the project would lose it’s momentum and die before it was started.

I think it’s a good idea to lay out the parts ahead of time. We could always juggle things around after the rhythm tracks were laid down, but too much copy-and-paste and it wouldn’t sound as organic.

I worked up a second dobro break this evening (don’t have it up to speed yet), so I can play it straight or mix it up a bit, whatever we need as the project takes shape.

#71

Thanks for all the effort on this project and getting it started and thanks Jesse for the rythym track.

I’m not much of a singer but I thought I’d record some vocals and a guitar break to listen back and get a feel for what the song sounds like at this tempo. I’m not trying to take away anyone’s part, this is strictly just to get some ideas from. I used Jesse’s whole rythym track (i hope that was ok), so if anybody wants to add some parts it’s there. I left an open spot after the second verse for a break and then after singing the third verse, it’s wide open.

Thanks again everybody and feel free to make fun of my singing.

[attachment=0]9# Hammer Vocals, Lead and Rythym.mp3[/attachment]

#72

Good job JW…like the break, has a bit more flash than mine!

Seems like the song has a lot of blank spots at 200 after listening to some vocals that JW provided…may I suggest we kick it up to 220? I don’t want to leave anyone “in the dust” or on the sidelines by kicking it up some, but I think it would be nice.

#73

Great job JW!

#74

— Begin quote from "Oldhat"

Seems like the song has a lot of blank spots at 200 after listening to some vocals that JW provided…may I suggest we kick it up to 220? I don’t want to leave anyone “in the dust” or on the sidelines by kicking it up some, but I think it would be nice.

— End quote

It’s fine by me, but I have the easy part. The other thing is that we can fill the empty spots with licks from various backing instruments.

#75

I went to Kompoz. It’s changed. I’m not sure for the better. The language and navigation is beyond me. I uploaded a new “stem.” I am not sure what was wrong with the word “track,” but what do I know? Anyway…

The track I uploaded is simply a click track. It is at 200 bpm. I know that the speed is up for discussion, but I picked the one I think most people were thinking it would be. If we stick with 200, we can use this one. If we go to 220 or some other speed, then we can start over (I can generate another one very easily). The clicks serve two purposes. First, they make a sync tone. Just be sure to include the first two clicks in the uploaded recordings as a sync tone. The second purpose is that they can also serve as a common metronome. If you line up the synch tones (the first two clicks), then by definition, the “metronome” is synched. If you prefer to play without the clicks (once other tracks are available), just fade the volume out. On the other hand if you prefer to play with the clicks and/or other tracks, they will be there.

I think Dave said he wanted 8 clicks for the kickoff. At this point, nothing else is recorded, but if desired, Dave could go ahead and play the kickoff and the opening break (as well as anything else he wanted). Let’s plan on the first downbeat after the kickoff to be the 9th click.

I had previously said I was going to record some endings and then we can discuss and pick one, on second thought, I think that’s a bad idea. I think we should leave the ending “open ended” so Ben can close it out however he wants and then we can make the backing tracks to match up with it.

It’s a start. Here’s the link to the track… sorry, stem.
kompoz.com/music/collaborati … e/409062/1

#76

I’ll have company over the next few days, so I’ll go ahead and make a disposable rhythm track laid out with what we know will be in there. That way people can start recording as they wish if they don’t want to play with the clicks. If we change tempo, no problem, we can do over. I’m just trying to get things rolling (when my wheels won’t go). By my count, we have 10 verses (including solos and singing) plus a kickoff and a ending lick. I’ll leave a “hole” for the ending lick. I’ll try to get that up tonight.

#77

I got a scratch track that lays out the basic format of the song. I hope I counted right. This track will be discarded when we get enough backing tracks to replace it. It has the 8 click count in for the kickoff. The ending is just a big old blank.
I think I already said it, but for “normal” uploads, the first two clicks should be plenty (as a synch tone) to line the tracks up.
Here’s a link:
kompoz.com/music/collaborati … e/409072/1

I won’t likely get much else done this week. Ya’ll have fun! Again, if ya’ll want to go a different tempo, not a problem as far as I am concerned. I just wanted to get a scratch track laid out while I had time for a little recording.

While I was singing along trying to remember where I was, I came to the conclusion that perhaps we’d want the backing volume dropped during the singing and more driving during the breaks. Does that sound good?

#78

Thanks for adding that stuff over at Kompoz, the time you have spent and effort is appreciated.

GIDDY UP Boys.

#79

I don’t know why I didn’t think of it last night, but I’ll pull out the last chord and put clicks in for the ending.

#80

Haha… the project already got a “like.” It was probably the click track that really won them over. I got tired of hitting that little wooden block for 4 minutes.