Playing in a Key

[verneq]

— Begin quote from "beardedbanjo"

Regarding the Nashville Number System:

Ben has Old Joe Clark in the key of G. The chords and corresponding numbers would be:
G - I
D - V
F - ?? (F# would be the VII chord, yes?)

So how do you number an F chord when in the key of G?

— End quote

Great Question and good observation!

Although Fiddlewood is exactly right F is the flatted 7th note, (used a lot in blues, rock, & bluegrass) I think you were talking chords and you would not refer to the F Major chord here as a flatted 7th since the 7 chord is actually a diminished/flat 7, and flatting that is way off the subject of this thread.

SHORT ANSWER: Old Joe Clark, like some other old fiddle tunes,(like June Apple) is Modal (mixolydian to be exact) or references an older system of music, which is still with us, that predates the current system of major minor , and modern chords (7ths, flat fives, diminished etc.) So the Nashville numbering system won’t quite work perfectly on some old time tunes.

LONG ANSWER: SO …. Welcome to the Modes! The good news is it is not rocket science. In this case OJC is based on the mixolydian mode or G to G in the C scale (which has the flat 7 F note BTW). So what the heck is a Mode. Well before people figured out to classified major and minor, they would break up each major scale into 7 sub scales, each part starting on a different note to get different feels. So C to C in the C major scale CDEFGABC is Ionian but D to D in the C major scale is dorian, E to E in the C scale is phrygian etc… (see the chart at the bottom). BTW Dorian is used a lot in bluegrass.

So since we call Old Joe Clark “G” and it pretends to be in “G major” for the first part of the song with the D chord (the Keys of C and G only have a one note difference F and F#) it switches to G Mixolydian on the F chord or the IV of the C scale.

Fun fact: Ionian is also called the Major scale, but Aeolian is called the Natural Minor Scale. So A minor and C major are really the same scale, they just start on different notes. So when people say what is the relative major or minor scale this is what they mean. What is relative minor scale to G major? E minor …same notes . Congrats you kind a know twice as many scales as you thought.

Mode Tonic relative to major scale Interval sequence (T=whole tone or full step; s=semi tone or half step). This works with other Keys- just using C as and example.

Example
Ionian I : T-T-s-T-T-T-s : C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
Dorian II : T-s-T-T-T-s-T : D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D
Phrygian III : s-T-T-T-s-T-T : E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E
Lydian IV : T-T-T-s-T-T-s : F-G-A-B-C-D-E-F
Mixolydian V : T-T-s-T-T-s-T : G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G
Aeolian VI : T-s-T-T-s-T-T : A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A
Locrian VII : s-T-T-s-T-T-T : B-C-D-E-F-G-A-B

[mreisz]

Music Teacher: “Johnny, can you use ‘phrygian’ in a sentence?”
Johnny: “Yes ma’am… verneq is phrygian smart.”

[verneq]

— Begin quote from "mreisz"

Music Teacher: “Johnny, can you use ‘phrygian’ in a sentence?”
Johnny: “Yes ma’am… verneq is phrygian smart.”

— End quote

'Twas a bit long but think of it as my “epistle to the mixolydians”

[mreisz]

I enjoyed your post very much! It’s amazing what one can do with with it once you get a basic feel for modes (like you were saying about the relative minors).

[fiddlewood]

Guess I stand corrected.

So I guess there is no easy way to communicate a quick chord while playing without having the confusion of capos, keys,modes, etc.

Can’t imagine trying to explain modes in the middle of a rousing jam on Old Joe Clark

[mreisz]

— Begin quote from "fiddlewood"

Guess I stand corrected.

— End quote

You and me both But that’s ok, I like learning stuff. For what it’s worth if we were playing in G and you told me to go to the flatted 7 chord, I’d go to F, so even if we were both wrong, it would still be effective communication.

I am still thinking about a good name for a pentatonic with a flatted third added… maybe a hexagrassian arpeggio? Quick! Somebody patent that and we can all retire off the profits and I’ll open up a retirement home for parking lot pickers (complete with many community picking areas).

[verneq]

— Begin quote from "fiddlewood"

Can’t imagine trying to explain modes in the middle of a rousing jam on Old Joe Clark

— End quote

Yeah most people just say either what you said … flat 7 or " it’s modal whatchout there is an F" Most fiddle tune chords were added way later( sometimes 100 years later ) to tunes that were meant to be played by a solo fiddle. So the chords were just added to match the notes being played not the key, so you get Ds and Fs in the same song. Also Chords are relatively new to the music scene, people knew C E G sound good together but calling it a C chord and that chords are part of a key is a newer idea than some of these tunes. It is also why the tune is consistent but the chords can change from jam to jam.

Fiddlewood- in a jam your statement would work best for communications sake, it is similar to a song that goes to the II chord, technically if you go to the II and it is a major chord it is a key modulation or the II should be minor but it is so common if people say there is a II, I and many assume major.

— Begin quote from "mreisz"

It’s amazing what one can do with with it once you get a basic feel for modes (like you were saying about the relative minors).

— End quote

I agree, the modes were game changers for me on guitar. Especially those hair band licks in the 80s. On mando I find arpeggios to be that but modes help as well.

[beardedbanjo]

Just when I thought I was starting to figure things out…

[verneq]

“There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.
There is another theory which states that this has already happened.” D.Adams

Music theory can seem like this in the beginning. It does have a system, but there are always exceptions particularly because people keep experimenting, and because it is a human language issue with describing a sonic phenomenon. Similar to color. We all know ROY G BIV, but try to paint the spare room with your significant other and your are dealing with serious taupe, off egg shell and free range mauve. I would say understand the Nashville number system, major and minor scales, know that the modes are just starting the same scale at different points, and some basic chord construction and you are more than good. Also know we who are posting and debating have had, at least in my case, 30 years of playing and learning. Most important trust your ear, and apart from practice, noddle and play.

[fiddlewood]

Trusting your ears and spending time playing is good advice.

Understanding theory has it’s uses, but so does just playing what sounds good to you without totally understanding the “why” of every note and chord.

a little story:
Last fall I took an entrance/placement exam for the local college music program. As I have been performing many types of music on several instruments for over 35 years I had to laugh that I couldn’t answer over 90% of the music theory questions!

I use what I can of it, if it helps me play better and get more enjoyment from the music. The rest I leave for those who need or want to use it.

[beardedbanjo]

— Begin quote from "fiddlewood"

I use what I can of it, if it helps me play better and get more enjoyment from the music. The rest I leave for those who need or want to use it.

— End quote

Sounds like 90% of musicians that I try to talk to.

[Oldhat1]

Great response / info Verneq!

Took me forever to catch onto “modes” until someone said it in terms that a “doofus” like myself could understand and that is exactly how you said it, where one is still in the major scale and simply starts at a different note and goes to that note again at the octave…modes then became obtainable for me in about 2 seconds. That light bulb came on for me around 2 years ago with a statement just like yours.

So let’s hear your version of the most useful bit of theory you think that has helped you in bluegrass.

Oh and for the record, in my circles we would have and do likewise make the mistake of calling that F chord that shows up in the G major (Or the 7th of any major) the “flatted 7th”…can’t imagine that boy on the porch of Deliverance would understand us hillbillies though!

Edit/Add: I will say that by knowing my scales fairly well over 3 positions and decent enough somewhat with 5 positions that this has really helped me in my “jamming” as when I get to a position or am making a statement and need to fill with a few notes that by knowing the scales I can see the proper notes in the scale and know that they belong and can use them if need be to fill before the next lick or melody line

[verneq]

— Begin quote from ____

So let’s hear your version of the most useful bit of theory you think that has helped you in bluegrass

— End quote

I would say yes know scales and modes, really I only use 4 of them for most music I play major (Ionian), natural minor (aeolian), Dorian (for bluegrass/rockabilly sounds)and Mixolydian ( for old timely sound/ and prog rock) and of course blues scales and pentatonic but they fit into the four mentioned.

My bluegrass epiphany was that you really play 2 scales a once. This is just how I think of it, but when looking at Tony Rice licks on gtr, or Sam Bush on mando, ( Ben licks as well) people will say they play a major scale with flatted this or that with a passing tone etc. this is confusing because, I don’t think like that in the middle of a jam, I think patterns. Once I realized the bassis of their runs we’re starting in G major and ending in G Dorian or vice versa I was like ooh, only 2 patterns I can do that. Now I don’t pretend I can do what they do, but once I started just practicing going up in one and back in another, then reversing it, and mixing it up, it started sound like licks, and then I started noodling from there.

[Harv]

Find which key you wish to play in.
Typical chords are the home chord… for instance… G…
The other chords are neighbors … D and C… often the chord below G which is Em

Let me know if you want to know how to transpose

All the best,

Harv