Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

New Songs All The Time

#21

I’m starting to see where you guys are coming from. I can feel my brain stretching and it’s painful. :slight_smile:

It’s going to take some time to digest all this but I’m going to give it an honest shot at trying to learn it. This is pretty much day one for really trying.

My understanding thus far of how to apply the scale is that it is just a guide for the notes that you can play.

For example: In Blue Railroad Train the 6th string on the first and second fret is played in that song. That fingering is not found in the G major scale, but, the notes ARE found in that scale. The F and F#. So by using those guidelines, all the notes in that scale are fair game where ever I can find them on the fretboard. Amirite? :laughing:

…and after typing that, I notice that every note is in that scale A-F except sharp notes?

I’m back to sqaure one mentally. :confused: :laughing:

It’s just going to take some time. I’m trying to apply something I know nothing about.

#22

Let’s back up just a bit. G lick!

G note - 1 note of the G major scale
A note - 2 note of the G major scale
Bb - flatted 3rd
B - 3rd
D - 5th note
E - 6th note
D - 5th note
G - The One (one octave higher) 3rd string open

to have a happier sound (blackberry blossom, sally Goodin, etc) you would use an F# in the melody (if in key of G)

to give a bluesier sound (Little maggie, I know you Rider) you would use an F.

F is the 7th note in the G Scale

The 3rd & 7th can be flatted at nearly at will to change the mood.

Help at all?

#23

Haha, more than likely Rice is capo’d up to the third fret and playing that song out of F. That will just confuse you so forget the capo and go with what you know…that is the D chord…so just look at it like he is majoring out of “D” for discussion purposes…now we are not in Kansas anymore with our “G major scale”, instead we are in D blues scale. Rice is all over the D blues scale… he lives in the blues scale! To me and to most he is the one that brought the blues scale into bluegrass so prominently… using the blues scale is Tony’s forte…want to sound like Tony? Go look on line for the “D blues scale” and learn it.

This scale and Tony’s use of it was brought up on the old forum…and I think it was ldpayton (Larry) that emphasized how much Ben incorporates the blues scale into some of his licks…he does a fine job of bringing that sound into his version of licks.

Learning Scales:

It is not like you have to learn every scale for every major…they simply transfer…once you learn a few positions then they all simply transfer/follow the same pattern…as in since you learn the major scale out of “G” then all you have to do is start on an A note, follow the same pattern you did in G and you have your A major scale…same goes true for other scales.

Oldhat

#24

Yeah, that helps. The cobwebs are clearing out somewhat. :smiley:

I think I just need some time with learning how to apply it. Then I can ask more educated questions. Heck, I don’t even understand the questions I’m asking.

I do appreciate you guys taking the time to try to explain it.

#25

I don’t want to over-load you but I’ve got another thing for you to think about and “important notes in a scale”:

Make your standard G chord…guess what, those are all G notes, B notes, and D notes…put those together anywhere on the fret boar and you my friend are making a G chord…now don’t you think that since it takes those 3 notes to make a G chord that if you are majoring in “G” that these guys may take a bit of precedence over those not-so-important notes in the scale?

Put those notes (GBD) together and you have a triad…a triad is a chord…an “inversion” is for instance is when you want to make a G chord and you throw together those 3 notes and the G is not your lowest tone note…I mean you have 3 combos there…it could be GBD, BDG, DGB…you are still making a G chord but if the “G” note is not the lowest tone it is an inversion either referred to as the “1st inversion” or the “2nd inversion”…is according to if the B or D is the lowest tone note in the G chord in whether you call it a “1st or 2nd inversion”

So if you make a G chord and your lowest tone is G then it is called a “root position” triad (example = GBD)
So if you make a G chord and your lowest tone is the “B” note then it’s referred to as a “1st Inversion” triad (example = BDG)
So i you make a G chord and your lowest tone is the D note then it’s referred to as a “2nd Inversion” triad (example = DGB)

All three of those above are all G chords!

#26

I watched Ben’s lesson on that yesterday, good stuff.

That makes sense that notes used to make up the G chords should take precedence over other notes when soloing over a G. Start on a root and end on a root and try to throw as many D and B notes in as I can. A C chord is made up of C, E, and G so I try to throw in as many E and G notes as I can but try to start and end on the root, which is C? Is this what they call phrasing, getting those distinguishing sounds between chords like the F sound you were talking about in “rider”?

I’m sitting here fiddling around with Ben’s Somehow Tonight break dissecting all the notes to understand which notes he is using and why. Pretty straight forward break mostly in G.

#27

99% of the time if you are majoring in G and you want to start a lead break and you don’t start on a G note then you are gonna start on a B or D note!

These are not “laws” but instead what happens “most of da time”. I figured I might as well get good at what happens “most of the time” then I will break the mold and venture into the 1%er world.

Now about the 1%er’s and their world…those guys will land on the wrong note and crash and burn, then they will bail themselves right back out of it and on their way to something else…they will think “man I hope the audience didn’t hear that screw up”…and the pickers in the audience will say “Did you hear that? That was marvelous I gotta learn that trick”…as most of the pickers in the audience are not good enough to be able to bail themselves out of a bad spot they screwed up on and will crash and burn…but those 1%ers can pull it off like champs!

#28

ooops…on your question about “phrasing”…phrasing ends up being “your personal touch in the way you play”. We all phrase differently, you are even doing it differently when you learn one of Bens breaks…your is just slightly different.

With ear training, understanding intervals, the scales, and through repetition you will be able to do a “blind taste test” and listen to a break for the 1st time and say “That was Tony Rice” or That was “Clarence White” or “That was Brian Sutton”…phrasing ends up being your own personal touch to how you play a certain lick or your “style”. Sure you can copy pretty closely other peoples phrasing but you eventually come up with your own. Mine…as of right now I love “dumping” all over my notes…dumping is muting it out and not letting it ring. I don’t do it “all the time” but you can bet if I am on a down stroke and going down the next string I will more than likely dump the note I just played. Think of the Song “Yakety Sax” (Benny Hill theme)…that is a classic example of dumping damn near all the notes of the melody.

#29

Only time I’ve ever heard of “dumping a note” it meant to get rid of it and not play it. hmmm, learn somethin new every day…

#30

Fiddlewood the “dumping” in essence is muting out some of the volume in music terms. So you even “dumped” to some extent your banjo by adding in the cotton shirt you mentioned. I refer to “dumping” as letting the string ring then muting it out to make short punctual notes verses letting them oscillate further. Now it’s not a “complete” mute out as the note is still recognizable but it’s life is cut short by either my thumb striking it after the pick and muting it out or via the fat part of my hand striking it on the fatty part of my palm. It’s not a complete palm mute.

Yakety Sax as mentioned abruptly ends the notes in a lot of the notes in the melody line or “dumps” them. I say if a person did not “dump” these notes then the portion of the song where this is applied would not be recognizable as “Yakety Sax”.

#31

Lately I’ve been working on a lot of muting in my rhythm playing. I think it gives it that tight compact sound. When everybody is just letting stuff ring out it can get a little muddy to my ear.

#32

I understand staccato just never heard it call “dumping”.

#33

Can’t believe a banjer player even has that word in his vocabulary, let alone knows what it is! :laughing:

Yes “Dumping” is staccato!

#34

— Begin quote from "Oldhat"

This song and “Rider” that we are working on has that F major in it and I sometimes have a hard time emphasizing that majoring out of G…however as much as Tony Rice likes using the G major Pentatonic with the blue notes added in (F shows up in it) we could probably gank a lot from him as he damn near put a patent on the that scale for bluegrass.
I have a few chops for this song that I will share with ya as soon as I can get them up but would be interested in seeing what you come up with if you make your own licks up.

Oldhat

— End quote

Been messing around with y’alls “Rider” song just trying to see if I could come up with something. Came up with this lick/fill for the verse ( or where ever) over the F and C. Again, don’t know if it’s “legal” but it doesn’t sound off to my ears. Sounds decent played over the verse starting at 1:12 (over F and C not the G) in your recording, to give you some idea of my timing.

#35

Nice little lick!

Two comments, meant for discussion only. Normally I would not choose the 2 (G) of the F chord in the beginning hammer-on and the next strum. Yes it is in the key of G and it works, but my choice would normally be an F.

Reason: it is the tonic of the F chord you are in and flows a bit more smoothly. It is also easier to play as it is already within the F chord position, making for more economical finger placement. Also you have a G on the third string you are playing already; the two G’s together would tend to muffle the hammer-on that is the featured part of the first move. It is also harder to finger correctly at high speed.

The way you play it = against F chord you play a C (partial chord) then a G (partial chord). All legal yes, just wouldn’t be my choice.

My choice would be to drop the third string during the F chord, and play the first two strings. first string on first fret and hammer-on from 1 to 3 on the second.

Reason: C and F create the 1 & 3 of the F chord and fit the chord without making the dissonant sound of hte 2 (g) during vocals you are backing up. F & D Are the 1 & 6 of F but also the 5 and b7 of the G chord (the key your in) and this creates that blues feeling in the overall context.

What you play is fine. I just thought I’d throw in some of my thought process on building a riff.

Normally I would be playing licks in between the vocals though and not on top of them if I were playing guitar. (banjos, fiddles and mandolins have less manners) mostly because the total sound depends so much on the rhythm being there to have that full/consistent sound.

#36

Thanks Dave! I need all the help I can get so I appreciate any advice you can give me.

I thought the playability was pretty easy just leaving the pinky planted and coming down with the first finger to the C. I am definately use to doing that lick though, I borrowed it from Ben’s Nine Pound Hammer tab. It’s amazing how when I’m trying to find a sound these licks in my memory are just popping up. To my ear the lyrics right there are kind of hard hitting and that type of hard hitting lick just fit. I’m trying out your suggestion on the F hammer on and I like it!

Yeah, I’m definately getting in a bad habit of playing leads over singing trying to figure out what sounds right. If you play with me, you better sing loud because I might go into a break on ya! :smiley:

BTW, if you see me doing something that is wrong or just doesn’t sound right, by all means let me know. You are not going to hurt my feelings, I want to learn the right way and I can’t do that on my own.

#37

The dissonant sound you’re talking about Dave. When I was playing it, it sounded like it fit but I wasn’t to sure if it was a Bluegrass sound. Is this sound not typical of Bluegrass?

BTW, this is the worst thread jack I have ever been a part of! HAHA

#38

There is no right & wrong within what we are talking about here, just different tastes.

I like hearing & seeing what others come up with. I learn a great deal from it.

It does fit. It is only a small thing that I prefer not to use the 2 of a chord against itself when playing a more drawn out note like your quarter notes. If it was an eight note or shorter I would never have mentioned it and like I say it is only an option of taste. either way fits fine. There are times I might opt for your way on that particular lick, just not in this exact spot for my ear.

#39

Ah, I see what you’re talking about. Think I saw in one of Tony’s videos he says he throws in a quick B or Bb while in an F chord that is not exactly “right” but he does it so quick nobody’s playing over it so it doesn’t sound off.

#40

yup, pretty much the same, although if he is using a c#, that would be a flatted 6th which compliments a chord about as much as the 2 to my hearing. But like I say it is all personal taste at this point.