Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Key of song?

#1

Gold Pick member emailed me this…what do you think?

Ben,

I need help…on the Flatt and Scruggs version (1958?) of “Don’t Let Your Deal Go Down” there are four chords that are the same in both the verses and chorus…here’s a copy of the first verse and chorus I have:

Verse 1

(F) Oh I’ve (D) been all a-round this (G) whole wide world,

© been down to sun-ny Al-a- (F) bam,

my (D) ma-ma al-ways (G) told me son,

© nev-er let your deal go (F) down!

Chorus

(F) Oh Hon-ey, (D) don’t let your deal go (G) down,

© don’t let your deal go (F) down.
Oh Hon-ey, (D) don’t let your deal go (G) down,

'till your © last gold dol-lar’s (F) gone!

Discussion. I at first assumed the key as (F) because of the strong F sound on the first and last “notes” (particularly on Earl’s F to D walkdown opening). But these four chords don’t fit the “F” scale…F(1), G(2), Bb(4), and C(5)…ie, F(1), G(2), C(5), D(6) in the song as written. My music theory knowledge ends here.

Assume key is (G): G(1), C(4), D(5), F(6 1/2) does not fit G scale.

Assume Key is (D): D(1), F(2 1/2), G(4), C(6 1/2)…does not fit D scale

Assume Key is ©: C(1), D(2), F(4), G(5)…fits C scale.

So I think the song is written in the key of C

What is the correct answer and why re music theory?

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#2

My music theory is abysmal. That said I too think it’s in the Key of C because it feels like it. F G & D seem to compliment C

Notes in the F Chord are also shared in the D chord.
D is the ii chord, a minor chord in the C scale

Earl also recorded some early tunes in the Key of G# I believe it was because the instruments sounded better on the recording equipment of the day.

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#3

This is one of those tunes that back cycles to the key of the tune. For example, the D, G and C chords sound like dominant chords to my ear (try adding a 7 to each and it works that way *D7, G7, C7) which resolves to the F chord (the F does not sound right if you add a b7 to it). So to my ear, it sounds like the tune is in the key of F major. Soloing would be done with mixolydian scales over each D, G, and C then resolve it to F.

C doesn’t really work as the melody ends it’s phrase on the note F, which also does not feel like the key of C major. Finally, the chord D major is not in the Key of C major, but that is not really the question here. My vote is for F major, just like the tune Sweet Georgia Brown does not start on the Key chord, this tune is similar in that way.

I missed the why part. In music (theory) it is common to use Dominant 7 chords (often thought of a V7 chords because of the function of the V7 > I chord movement in any key) to move from chord to chord. Background: Major chords sound happy but do not necessarily promote forward movement to the next chord, minor chords sound sad but also do not move forward, while Dominant 7 chords (like G7) want to move forward to the next chord (in this case G7 > C major or V7 > I). With that in mind you can see that if I wanted to have lots of forward movement (in the key of C major), I could “back cycle” thought the V7 chords and come up with a progression like D7 > G7 > C or A7 > D7 > G7 > C or E7 > A7 > D7 > G7 > C, with each preceeding chord moving toward the next chord and ending in the key of C major. It does not matter that the chords E7, A7, D7 have notes in them that are not in a C major scale. HOWEVER, if you are to improvise over each of those chords, and want it to sound it’s best, you should use the proper scale for each chord and in this case each scale would be mixolydian in the key of the chord being played at that moment. Of course there are lots of other notes that can be added to the mixolydian scale in each of those keys like blue notes (b3, b5) that will make those scales sound bluesy, but that is a whole other discussion.

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#4

You lost me on this on @DrGuitar1 Way over my head. I feel sure young @Michael_Mark will figure it out.

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#5

It seems like F to me.

I think it’s the same chord progression as Salty Dog Blues

F -> D -> G -> C -> F
1 -> 6 -> 2 -> 5 -> 1

I don’t have a ton of music theory knowledge, but my ear hears a chord progression starting with an F, eventually getting to a C that resolves to an F. Some of these chords are “weird” for bluegrass, but they sure sound cool!!

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#6

The song is in key of G with capo on 1 i.e. in G#.
I think some chord variants are used, will share my thoughts on chord progression later today.

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#7

Note to any who are looking at Ben’s lead sheet and see the same as me, the copyright symbol is for a C chord (the parenthesis make it a copyright).

My first take based on the chords is key of C. A major second (D) is often used. The chords all fit C.

That said, I read Doc’s answer and agree, with the minor caveat that soloing in F over it didn’t fit for me (which I feel like it should if we are in a consistent key). Soloing in any single key that I tried didn’t fit. As Doc said, you pick notes from D, then G, then C, then F.

The entire song reminds me a bit of how Rick Wakeman modulated keys on Cat Steven’s version of Morning has broken. He went on a (seemingly) wandering journey using the dominant chords to wind up where he wanted (it wasn’t wandering, it was very purposeful). The main difference is that this one never stops wandering. When I think of it that way, it’s just 4 modulations with the oddball being the F to D (F is not the dominant of D).

The chorus notes chosen seem to fit the keys of F G and C (at least no glaring discrepancies as I visualize the notes on the various scales). That said, except where it lands (F), none of the notes seem like a typical choice for any of the keys.

Based on what little I know of theory, I’d have to place this in the key of uncertainty.

Since F is where it ultimately lands and is the only one that isn’t used as a dominant, I’d go with most likely key of F.

I do think one could view it as 4 modulations (D, G, C, F) and write it out as such (if doing standard notation). If you wanted to be cute, you could write it as a 2 key modulation: 3 measures of G, followed by one measure of F.

One thing that bothers me, is that walk down from F to D feels familiar, but I can’t think of where else I have heard it used.

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#9

The last few chords in Sweet Georgia Brown at the end of the 1st half of the verse. It is a VI(7) > II(7) > V7 > I. It’s actually not that uncommon. The tonic (root key I chord) goes down to the VI(7) in Alices Restaurant (C > A7 > D7 > G7), not unlike the way this tune moves. The difference is that the song starts on the Root Key I chord (Tonic). :wink:

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#10

So I’ll throw this into the mix

C G Am F Em Dm A and say. I think this tune is in the Key of C and leave it up to Y’all to ponder this one.

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#11

I believe I heard a D major chord sneak in there too. Still, it is definitely in the key of C major. To be clear, not all of the chords (harmonies) used in a tune have to be made of only the notes of the key scale. It is often the case that chords and harmonies will be used that point to the key of the tune but are outside the key. For example, a tune in the key of C major (no sharps or flats) might have the chord B7 in it (B, D#, F#, C, with notes outside the key of C major) with the B7 leading or moving toward the chord Em (E, G, B with notes within the key of C major). Such a progression will add harmonic interest to a tune. But if you were to try to play a C major scale while the B7 chord is playing, you would sound mistaken. So you would play the scale that fits the chord B7 while it is playing, which would be the scale B mixolydian (essentially a major scale with a flatted 7th (b7)). then when you hit the chord Em, you would go back to the C major scale but using target notes for the Em chord to start and end your phrases while playing the Em (E, G, B). Again, I have gone too far and that is for another discussion. :+1:

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#12

I vote for F!

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#13

I think it’s easier to say there are a bunch of key changes throughout the song!:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

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#14

Just randomly change the key for two measures, it will be all right! The vocalists will figure it out someday!

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#15

Exactly!:wink::stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye::crazy_face:

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#16

Hey Ben…you said “I vote for F”. Can I get you to explain the music theory behind your answer and where I went wrong in my initial analysis that is repeated here:

Discussion. I at first assumed the key as (F) because of the strong F sound on the first and last “notes” (particularly on Earl’s F to D walkdown opening). But these four chords don’t fit the “F” scale…F(1), G(2), Bb(4), and C(5)…ie, F(1), G(2), C(5), D(6) in the song as written. My music theory knowledge ends here.

Assume key is (G): G(1), C(4), D(5), F(6 1/2) does not fit G scale.

Assume Key is (D): D(1), F(2 1/2), G(4), C(6 1/2)…does not fit D scale

Assume Key is ©: C(1), D(2), F(4), G(5)…fits C scale.

So I think the song is written in the key of C

What is the correct answer and why re music theory?

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#17

While the D major and G major chords aren’t diatonic to the key of F, the way the all chords are functionally used in the song indicates to me that the song is in the key of F.

This would make the D - G - C - F progression a 6-2-5-1. This wouldn’t be uncommon at all (in fact, Flatt & Scruggs’ “Salty Dog” uses a 6-2-5-1, but they start out the song with the 1 chord, making it much easier to perceive it as such).

Intuitive proof for the key of F: When you listen to this song, the D, G, and C chords all sound like leading chords. It wouldn’t be very natural to end the song on D, G, or C, but F sounds like home.

D, G, and C all sound very much like dominant chords in this song (and 2, 5, and 6 are some of the most common chords to change into dominants). And looking at Lester’s left hand in this video, it looks like he plays the C chord as a C7. Since he plays a C7 chord there before resolving to F major, that would almost certainly indicate that he perceived C7 not as the home chord, but as a dominant chord leading to F.

This would work if the D chord was a D minor, but the chord here is a D major (looks like Lester is playing a D7, actually), which wouldn’t be diatonic to the key of C. In fact, this chord progression isn’t diatonic to any of these keys (G. C, D, or F)—at least one of the chords would be “outside” all four of those keys.

(If all this is gibberish: Check out Alan Munde’s Fretboard Geography course! It’s a perfect intro to thinking about diatonic chords on the banjo.)

Just realized I basically just reiterated exactly what Doc and Shad said. Oops!

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#18

Ditto squared on all that.

If I’m ever on trial for murder on music row, I’m bringing you in as a forensic theorist expert witness.

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#19

Hey Ben and all you guys who entered your music knowledge…Thank You!

Looks like you guys are correct on the key of F…on page 30 of “The Earl Scruggs Banjo Songbook”, the sheet music (Tab) for “Don’t Let Your Deal Go Down” notes that G Tuning Key of F (Recorded in G# tuning) was Flatt and Scruggs recording choice. The book contains 86 tunes with music tabs of Earl’s picking. I would think a “MUST HAVE” for all of us Scruggs enthusiasts.
Thanks again,
Jim Joyce

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