Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

Learning Lag

Hello Joe,

I heard that comment at a Uriah Heep (Yes I remember them) allstars concert . By Allstars it was a collection of former members and the Keyboard player Ken Hensley introduced the Bass player Paul Newton by saying “The best bass player that Paul knows” cue laughter in audience and amongst group on stage. But they sold millions of units.

To my shock my playing has improved in the few short days that I have been listening to my son (no insult intended) just he has given me another way of thinking. That said I think that it will hit another plateau and for me personally i will then need to find another step on the Staircase (Fiddle_Wood).

I really enjoy these opportunities presented on here as am also doing so much reading.

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Hi Michael_Mark

Thanks for the reassurance - When first started flat picking back in 2004 it was quite a challenge. I think what threw me most - learning today - was once I’d used to be able to pick things up quite quickly - back then - it seemed to hold in my mind better. I seemed to get comfortable with what I knew and I was so pleased to make steady progress back then.

Just about all of the stuff Ben’s tabs want me to do shouldn’t be too hard in someways. I can even cheat just about all the parts by playing the same sort of riffs but adding in some picked notes rather than the whole combination of hammer offs, slides and pull offs. It’ll sound pretty good too. But I’ll know I’m not doing it right…And Ben’s way sounds better. .My fixed habits are constantly trying to stop me learning new stuff. Which is so annoying, And it just seems to be harder to get stuff to stick and flow - which makes me feel very old…but I hope I’ll get there…

Also, thanks for sharing your thoughts about the banjo. One of the other reasons I subscribed was to try and learn to play banjo. I was trying some banjo rolls, with simple chords, but kept getting lost on how to understand what on earth I was doing with my picking fingers. I can Travis pick on a guitar. But banjo rolls are somewhat different. . The constantly rolling notes still confuse me…So I’d hoped I find some time to work on those but I’ve not had a much time to work on my banjo playing since I started to realize how much I’d have to concentrate on my guitar flat picking technique.

The banjo exercises look great and ironically - because I’ve not got any bad habits to break I seem to pick things up (slowly) when I get the chance. Or maybe I’m just not as anxious about playing badly, because I don’t know any better and without the tabs I’d sound terrible… I’m quickly pleased to find something that works as I tried to do it myself but it really wasn’t working out .I just want to learn to play back up banjo rhythm first, as looking back I really should have got my rhythm and chord transitions in the pocket on guitar before I even attempted the melodies. But I can get too carried away with all the fancy parts in melodies and forgot the overall song. I’m not at tall interested in learning to play any melodies on banjo yet and will only try it once I know that I can play a whole songs smoothly as a chord progression. It’s been interesting too because I can also hybrid pick (using a flat-pick instead of a thumb pick) telecaster style - so I’ve been having a lot of fun with the banjo trying to do some Brent Mason/Albert Lee style hybrid picking licks. So I am constantly able to amuse myself with some bizarre banjo effects… I know for a fact that I will never be very good on the banjo, but I do like it. It is so loud!

So thanks for sharing your thoughts…

I am a quite stubborn and like to learn things correctly. So pretty sure I won’t give up… even if it is driving bananas…

Thanks again!

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Hi mharrison43

I’m a UK bluegrass amateur player. I have never met another bluegrass flat-picker in my town. So I am definitely the best on in my town.

I have met a nice local English couple who actually travel to the states to play bluegrass back up for professional US musicians. She plays the upright bass and his back ground is acoustic swing style, so he’s very good at riffing rhythmically. But they don’t play bluegrass when back in UK and they get together with other swing style musicians…

I play acoustic folk music with some friends at a local pub - but nobody else knows the bluegrass standards. So I don’t flat pick when I’m out. I just add a little bit of lead or rhythm to popular songs they all know and sing. Sometimes it sounds a little bit country or bluegrass…

So I can at least be pleased - that even at my level - I am best in town!

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Agreed

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If you are a reader, then there are a couple of books I’ve read recently that may be of interest - “The Talent Code” by Daniel Coyle, and “The Laws of Brainjo, The Art and Science of Molding a Musical Mind” by Josh Turknett. The Talent Code book was so-so for me, but the Brainjo book was excellent. @xmark recommended that book to me. The author is a neurologist who also enjoys playing banjo. He brings the latest insights on learning from a neurological perspective and gives you practical applications to help you learn more efficiently in his book (whether it’s the banjo, guitar, etc. doesn’t matter). In one chapter he addresses the age issue (“The Advantages of an Adult Brain”) and you’ll be happy to know that you can indeed learn perfectly well at any age.

I’m in the process of stewing on and synthesizing what I’ve read in Brainjo and some other things and how to put it to practical use. @davidgear’s advice from his son on not practicing your mistakes is sort of one of the things in Brainjo. That also goes along with one of the mantra’s of my old high school basketball coach (he played in college at Ohio State with Havlicek, Lucas, et al), which was “Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect.” He introduced us to visualization techniques and what was called ‘psycho-cybernetics’ at the time (late '70s) saying that only in your mind can you practice perfectly every single time.

To try to summarize what I see as the main ideas of the Brainjo book:

When we learn a skill (like a new lick) we build a neural network. Once that neural network is built (increasing our neuroplasticity), the skill becomes automatic, or moves subcortical (you can do it without consciously focusing on it). One way you can test to see if you are reaching that stage with a lick is by playing with a metronome. Being able to focus on the metronome and playing in time with it means your brain can play the lick while paying attention to the metronome. (This alone impresses upon me the value of playing with a metronome.)

As we build our skills (expand our neuroplasticity) we build a large vocabulary of licks, phrases, tunes, etc. That, combined with understanding the rules of music, allows us to become good players. He makes a direct parallel to a child learning to speak (build vocab, learn the rules of language, begin to talk). The best thing here is that you don’t have to go to school to build the vocab and learn the rules - you learn naturally by listening. A lot.

The author also discusses using visualization, optimal practice durations and times, dealing with stage fright, and several other things.

One of the things I’ve been struggling with (I’ve not used tablature very much in the past) is that I learned a few songs by having that tab in front of me the whole time. I could play it great with the tab, but had no clue how to play it without that tab. I think that’s because I built the neural network to play that song by completely incorporating the tab into the neural network that I built. Now, I am trying to use the tablature wisely as a supplemental tool but getting away from it as soon as I can. I’m doing that with these songs I memorized from tab by breaking up those songs into smaller pieces, recording myself playing each portion slowly, then playing along with them by ear with no tab. Once I can do that, I’ll reconstruct the entire song, playing it completely without the tab. I’ll let you know if this works. This brings to mind another of my high school coach’s teaching methods: whole-part-whole. He always showed the whole big picture, then broke it down to teach in fundamental blocks, then reconstructed those pieces back into the whole again. I think Banjo Ben does this very thing perfectly. He gives you the lesson overview, then breaks it down into pieces to learn, then gives you the tracks to put it all back together again. Whole-part-whole.

Finally, remember why you play. Enjoy the experience. Play for you, and express yourself through your music. I’ll never play like Banjo Ben, or Jake, or half the players on this forum, but that’s ok! On the other hand, no one on earth will ever play like me either! For better or worse, LOL!!! Back when I played regularly on a worship team at a large church (2,000+) I rarely got comments from people about HOW I played. But I very often got comments along the lines of, “I like when you’re playing up there, you really look like you’re having fun.” The more important thing was connecting with people from the stage and sharing the joy of worship and of music. Enjoy the ride!

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That was a bit of a data dump, sorry… actuaries can tend to do that. Shorter response: yes, the amount of things to potentially learn is overwhelming. For me some stuff sticks easier and some doesn’t, I don’t know why. @Fiddle_wood is right, progress is a stair step with uneven steps, some big jumps and some long flat steps. Sometimes things go well for me and sometimes it’s a slog. I try not to get trapped into the mindset of “if I could just get good enough to play this… then I’ll be happy” because then I’ll never be satisfied. If I can make progress on one thing in a practice day, then I’m happy.

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This is why I memorise a measure or phrase at a time and escape from reading the tab asap. This method also forces me to work on a specific section rather than running through more that I can repeat by memory.

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HI Rich,

Thanks so much for your analysis - You’ve clearly studied about how we learn and it gives me hope.

I also agree with the memorizing and listening part of your comments. Over the last few years I’ve played more by ear. I hadn’t even realized it but my playing and awareness of the melodies I know sort of just sunk in - there are times when I will simply be able to find all the right notes up and down the neck without thinking about it - that its just under your fingers. Where playing becomes more like speaking - you just seem to find the words (notes in this case). Don’t get me wrong - all I end up playing is what you’d expect to hear (no glaring errors) and I have be in zone - which is rare or after playing for many many hours. It can also feel weird sometimes because its like watching or listening to someone else play - For example I may have just be noodling and I’m suddenly playing the “Red Haired Boy” and just keep carrying on, much to my own surprise. When I stop and think about what I’m actually doing then I’ll often lose it…

Also, people like Ben and Jake are extraordinary players. Even if I can learn to speak with my guitar I know I won’t ever have much to say… I just enjoy playing and I enjoy learning. I am so grateful that these great players can give me some insight into what they are doing. I’d never hope to be able to do what they do. That’s also never been the point - You can only say what you can say with any language - music included. I don’t have the creative talent to string together limitless phrases of notes - To literally just play with the music.

Probably some of my frustration comes from going back to tabs after a greater emphasis on listening - I’ve had so much free time recently to play and I know I won’t get it again. Even though I’ve not played some tabbed tunes for years I can see improvements, I don’t feel the same strain when reading old tabs - I stopped playing from tabs because I sounded just like a robot going round and round in circles - I knew that I was not listening to anything I was playing and it kind of ruined the songs I enjoyed…

I’m really pleased with the resources I’ve found here. I can see so much potential in the exercises which will improve my playing if I can commit to learning them. It’s just so challenging - I’ve got so far - it’s like saying to yourself “do you really want to go through all this again?”, Maybe like having a newborn to look after - you could cope with it in the past, but do you really want to go through all the aggravation and frustrations.

I’ll be going back to work full time - later this week - so I know the window for my opportunity to learn without limits on time is closing. I can never play well when tired and so much other stuff in life gets in the way of your hobbies normally. I recognize the steep path of mountain but am not certain I have the energy, time or ability to keep climbing. I know I’ll carry on because I’m stubborn and enjoy playing and listening to music. I like to understand, even if I can’t play it - oh they’re just doing that! Doing and knowing are different, but it really interests me.

So thanks for you wise insight - I’ll see what happens with my learning - I’ll definitely keep on playing no matter what, my guitar has always been there and has really helped me out in these weird times we’ve all been living through recently…

All the best!

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that is really advice @rich
I just downloaded Brainjo , sounds interesting

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@Rich no apologies for the brain dump. I’m going to checkout the Brainjo book. Plus, I don’t get to see John Havlicek and Jerry Lucas mentioned very often. Harlingen was my first favorite ball player (probably because he was my Dad’s favorite). I bet Jerry Lucas could get us a memory technique to memorize our instruments fretboard :grinning:

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I believe our ancestors would have put it this way: “Practice makes perfect.”
They just couldn’t tell you why.
They had such a limited vocabulary in those days! :grin:

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Thanks to everyone who shared their own thoughts about learning new ideas with music

I enjoyed reading every ones comments

It really helped me feel much more confident with the new challenges I’ve set myself

All your input has been greatly appreciated!

It’s great to have a forum here - friendly and helpful advice

All the best

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Very welcome happy playing ! It has been enjoyed myself!

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Hey Man, i really cant identify with that. i’m a player that is familiar with music and plays by ear so i can learn fairly fast (after 6 month of playing i had lonesome rd blues up to speed within 2-3days). to top it all off i’m only 16 so my mind is still fairly quick to pick things up.

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HI Shaky,

Make the most of your talent. I am know expert - but I did used to teach in high school
This is not a fact but a theory - The young brain can absorb new information like a sponge
It wants to learn - It stays at its optimum ability to soak up new stuff till you are around 21 or 22.
After that you can still learn - but you need to work at it…
As you get older 40s and 50s the stuff you used to know starts to leak out your head…
Learning new things is a greater effort in you’re older…You are set in your ways
The brain is an incredible thing - so it is never too late to learn anything if you set your mind .
So there is hope for everyone…

I’m just a bit overwhelmed because I know I’ll have to put in hundreds of hours to take what may just be a few easy steps for someone of your age and talent…

People your age can also “invent” new things with what they’ve learnt - I’ll just be happy with the basics…

Thanks for sharing - work hard!

All the best!

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Hi Shaky,

It is fantastic that you have the skills and abilities you describe and I would love to hear you play .I have mentioned one of my sons who has skills that look and sound a lot like yours and I marvel at that as well.

The route for some of us is not as easy and we have to find practice styles that maximise what we have. Tonight am using the routine my son taught me and am working on 3 pieces in the same key . A fingerpicking number , a flat picked Rhythm piece and flat picked run all A minor stuff. When a mistake sets in I move on and for fun am combining the works to produce a musical piece that would entertain me if no one else.

For me this forums are great and I welcome all comments who knows what will work for me! Happy playing!

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I attended the July 4th camp. Came home exhausted but spent the next week or so making notes and capturing ideas. I took a short vacation toward the end of July and I worked on the new ideas.

The whole month of August I’ve been busy at work and on the farm. I have not had the banjo out of the case in 5 weeks. Last night I pulled it out and was surprised at how much of the new stuff I had retained. My hands were stiff from work and the licks were not spot on, but I was pleased with the few minutes I had to play and the recall of the new material.

Do you think that sometimes laying the instrument down for a period of time allows the brain to organize?

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Hello Jeffrey,

I think it is all of the things that have been mentioned by the good people on here and yourself. I had left some pieces alone myself and found that they have moved into the unconscious ability locker now. From many years ago and showing my interests at that time I learnt “The Wizard” Uriah Heep and Diary of a Working Man by Blackfoot . They are both still very intact and improved by the Bluegrass practice.

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Yes, I think that’s true @5-StringPilgrim. I’ve experienced something like that at times too. I think it’s one of the reasons why I see a common piece of advice being to take several breaks when practicing because the breaks allow you to refresh and refocus your attention and it also allows your brain a little break to digest subconsciously what you’ve been practicing. I’ve been trying to do that more but it takes some self discipline because my natural tendency is to grind it out over and over again.

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Hi 5-StringPilgrim

Yes I do think it’s very important to put the instrument down and just let the new info settle in your head.

Whether you realize it or not I think your brain is constantly working on the music in the background, without you even knowing about it. Making connections to the big picture of why you play and what you can play next.

I’ve had periods - The longest was about seven years - Where I stopped playing guitar altogether

When I started to pick the guitar up again my playing seemed to have nose dived, but after about a week or two it was back to where it was before. Quite strangely everything was also still there that I’d learnt in the past - which I’d consciously forgotten about - I even rediscovered exercises or songs I’d worked on as a kid . It was a bit like having flashbacks of your life. I’d forgotten that I worked on so many things for so many hours.

After about a month or so of playing again I got comfortable and started learning new things I found my overall musicality had improved and I had no idea why? Some things (in my old playing) that I used to struggle with - where I really had to think about it - seem much less effort. I’d made no direct effort to address these problems but they somehow weren’t big problems anymore. My overall learning seemed to be better and I made a lot of connections with things I learnt in the past and new things I now wanted to learn. My playing was better and my learning was more focused.

I wouldn’t recommend anyone to put their instrument away for years. But I just wanted to try and illustrate that I think learning or absorbing of music (the big picture) is going on in the background of you mind - somehow. It’s also not just absorbing it but working it into your overall understanding of what you play and what you could do with it. I didn’t play for years but I was a better player when I came back to play again.

You only put your instrument down for a few weeks so you could get back in the zone quickly - on a good day of course - we all get bad days. I am pleased that you could see the progress you’d made.

A personal example of my background learning is from me absentmindedly noodling (quite recently) and I got carried away and started playing “The Cherokee Shuffle” I just keep playing it without thinking. It was only after I’d been playing it for quite a while that I realized that I was playing in a completely different key to the one I normally use. I think that I tried to transition to the chord progression and the chords were clearly wrong. A lot of the fingerings were similar but different to what I’ve taught myself. I’ve never tried to transcribe this tune - but my brain seem to have worked it out for me I think my memory of this melody is now so strong - that my mind has done something to help me play it no matter what… I don’t know what my brain has done. But I didn’t practice or ask it to. I was genuinely shocked? I should not be able to play this tune in this key… When I stopped to think about the fingerings and open notes I’d got right - without thinking I was amazed. I’ve not tried to play the tune in that key again - It was quite a weird experience - but it did show me that a am learning more and more about music - even when I don’t try.

So your brain is very weird and can teach you things without even realizing.

I also think its so important to listen to and enjoy music. I think you brain is constantly working on music - Its kind of addicted to it. Music is marvelous stuff. I not had to drive for weeks but I got in my car the other day and a Hank Williams song started up that I’d not anticipated - It was amazing and a broad smile when over my face as I to listened to the music. I’d missed hearing that those songs so much - my brain was back in touch with a good friend and very happy.

You experience with banjo sounds like you’ve imprinted what you wanted or needed to learn well and should be able to make really good progress. That it won’t ever be as difficult to do again.

Thank you for sharing your experience of learning.

Keep on going and you’ll somehow never forget what you learn - it will even improve without you trying.

All the best!

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