Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

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#16

Wow! Lots to take in here. Thank you. I’ll slow my reading down and see what here my brain can handle.

But, let me break one thing down a little more, and really get to the meat of one question. This is
coming back to the importance of accepting or rejecting Calvinism.

Do you believe that people who reject Calvinism while still trusting in Jesus as they’re only hope for heaven? Couple that with the knowledge that only God knows the absolute answer.

I say yes, what say you?

Jack

By the way, I’ve listened to JD and RC a lot on the radio. Both are incredible teachers.

#17

Do I believe those who reject Calvinism can be saved? Heavens yes! This is not a salvation issue! It affects my worship, how I approach ministry/evangelism, my humility, but if we had to have a perfect theology to be saved, no one could go to heaven.

I want to go on record as saying some of the most godly, God-fearing, God-loving brothers I have are not Calvinists. I’ve gone around the world with Church of Christ brothers, preaching the gospel together, in gospel unity. Yes, there are essentials: One God, three persons, dual nature of Christ, sacrificial atonement, literal resurrection, requiring repentance/faith unto salvation…those and a few other essentials, I do not budge. But this is an in-house debate and I would be ashamed if anyone outside the kingdom was discouraged at two sides bickering–it is not worth that.

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#18

Excellent point. I was thinking the same thing. Trifling over God’s word is horrible, and I apologise to anyone who may have thought that.

But its now agreed as a non essential which is exactly where I was going. I appreciate you taking the time for some complicated issues. To be continued.

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#19

I’ve given this a little more consideration, and it reminded me of your 2 part teaching a few months back on God’s sovereignty. I think I had mentioned that the biggest takeaway that I got was that he ordains absolutely everything, because he is sovereign.

So, in that context, Calvinism makes a good deal of sense. I’m still completely on the fence though, in terms of embracing this doctrine, and at this time quite content with being there.

This may not be the best comparison, but several years back there was a movie called “The Butterfly Effect”. Though I didn’t see it, I believe the premise was that even the breeze created by a butterfly flapping it’s wings leads to another event and another event eventually resulting in something cataclysmic. Cause and effect, if you will.

“And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose” Romans 8:28.

Remember the emphasis on "work together, not “work out” in the teaching? That was good.

I have much more swirling around, but my writing’s already getting a bit disjointed.

GB,

Jack

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#20

On the subject of Calvinism, I would say go read Ezekiel 18:23, 32, and 33:11 then tell me that you can’t change your mind.

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#21

I found this thread looking up “reading” I am not going to delve into the Calvin thought. I studied that way too long ago.
My thoughts are on Dietrich Bonhoffer…I read his biography a few years ago and was so i.pressed with the man. I have just started reading his book The Cost of Discipleship.
Boy, how do! I love this guy!
I dont know how long it has been since i have done so much underlining when reading!
Have you read him?

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#22

I much prefer in-house debates over sprinkling vs. immersion, timing of the rapture, or even the age of the earth rather than this issue. Reason being is that I find High Calvanism greatly alters the character of God. Norman Geisler’s book Chosen But Free points out, “God’s will cannot be cut loose from His immutable nature, hence limited atonement is ruled out by essential omnibenevolence.” Roger Olson’s book (and try not to judge it by its title) “Against Calvanism” is one of the best books I have ever read on the topic. Nonetheless, I am happy to say that I have been blessed by several Calvanists; Arthur Pink’s book Guarding Your Heart is awesome! (despite his Calvanism :rofl: ; the Calvanist teacher across the hallway joins me in prayer each morning before our day at school; and Banjo Ben is the best in the business. But as for me and my house, we believe Christ died for all: 1 Timothy 4:10 (interesting wording if salvation was only offered to believers), 2 Peter 2:1 (here we have false teachers whose sins have been paid for), Hebrews 2:9, 1 John 2:2, 4:14, John 3:15, 11:26, 12:46, Acts 2:21 & 10:43. Love you, my Calvanist friends. Stay salty and keep pickin’
https://soteriology101.com/2017/06/16/why-ravi-zacharias-rejects-calvinism/

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#23

Hey Ben not to derail, but one book I wanted to mention I did in a men’s bible study a while back is called Beautiful Outlaw, check out the site @ https://www.ransomedheart.com/rhplay/video/beautiful-outlaw-video-series-chapter-1 and the book

#24

Haven’t read him, though I did watch a couple of specials about him on NRB years back.

I got the book Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis, and though it’s not long, it will take me a long time to read it. (I read very slow).

This could be a good one for the future.

Though the best theological minds of yesterday and today (Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon, Sproul) are in agreement on Calvinism, I can’t embrace it yet.

Also, it’s not an essential in my personal opinion. I find it quite fascinating, but I think I’d be better off letting God explain it to me someday.

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#25

Love C.S. Lewis, a fun read is Screwtape Letters as well from him. :grinning:

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#26

I previewed…Looks really interesting. :+1:

#27

Yes, I have it. Haven’t finished it yet.

#28

Out of a Silent Planet is awesome too.

#29

I really like I don’t have enough faith to be an atheist by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek

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#30

I am reading that book right now! Great book!

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#31

Yes, I have read the Screwtape letters. It was excellent to get a look @ spiritual warfare from the dark side.

#32

Here ye, here ye…I agree with your last statement. Someday He will make it all clear to us! For me the truth of salvation and free will in believing in the triune God (G3) causes me to mourn for those who do not know the truth and to follow the call to share his word to the ends of the earth. (Though I will not be going to the end of the earth those I share with may or perhaps I e tbey share with) the ripple effect.
I testing to discuss, but certainly not at the risk of splitting a church. (I do u derstand that this discourse is a friendly discussion).

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#33

I do…Essentials unity. Non essential liberty. All things charity.

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#34

Thank you for your charity and kind spirit. I would say that the relationship with God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility is an in-house debate as well. As long as the essentials of the gospel are maintained, the rest of these “points” are indeed secondary. What are the essentials in this debate? Sinful man requires God’s supernatural grace to understand truth and come to God (John 6:44, 1 Cor. 2:14, etc), and all men are responsible to come to God through Christ and make a willing choice to repent of their sins and believe (Mark 1:15, etc.). No Bible-believing Arminian nor Calvinist will deny either of those.

When you say “High Calvinism” perhaps you are referring to hyper-Calvinists? Those who would say evangelism is not necessary? I reject hyper-Calvinism as heresy and a debate with them would not be in-house, as I would not be in fellowship with anyone who doesn’t obey the Great Commission.

Further, as a man cut from the same cloth as Charles Spurgeon, I believe that Christ did indeed die for all in some sense. Why? Because the Bible says so :slight_smile: However, only those who place their faith in Christ will be saved. I want to clarify that since universalists use 1 Timothy 4:10 as support for their belief.

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#35

I agree with those essentials,Ben, but I believe in prevenient grace rather than irresistible. I also believe in total depravity but not to the extent that man is incapable of responding to that grace. I’ve re-edited this for fear that my earlier defining of terms would have stirred up the debate over which some have heartache.

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