Forum - Banjo Ben Clark

I'd like to start a conversation

That’s what I meant by 'really knowing" it. Really knowing it means you can move fast up and down the neck, play the scale in time and identify the note.

Here’s you a video that helps show what I am talking about. Can you do it all this fast like him, identify what position you are in, and also identify each note? Now keep on working up to 100+ BPM and getting to a point where you can talk on the phone and your ear and hands simply just do it without you thinking about it.

Start at around 1:28 in vid if you’d rather skip to what I am talking about.

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Cool, that helps!

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This is a great read you’ve got going on here. Its technically way outta my reach and ability level - in fact most of the stuff you guys are talking about is way over my head, but I’ve always loved listening to this kind of playing. It’s very intriguing to me. In the 1st Mayer vid, the last song bit he did before the end was help on the way/slipknot I’ve heard so many different versions of that, Cumberland blues, all of them really, over the years. (That got me more than the rap ref lol.) Love Jerry’s skill set for sure. And now Mayer carrying it on and then explaining it. Very cool. Did you see the 18 min long 3 song jam vid I posted from the Billy Strings show on jan 23rd? It was in the “what are yall up to” category I think on jan 24th. If you watched that whole 3 song jam, do you think it relates to what you’re discussing here? It was definitely fun music for the crowd (you could literally feel it in the air so to speak) and the musicians appeared to be having a blast as well!

Totally agree 100% there :+1:t2:

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There seems to me to be some confusion here.

There is quite a difference in free improvisation (inventing new, never before played licks on the spot or being suprised with a completely new tune) and a break taken by a professional that plays in a “jam band” that does a couple hundred shows a year (playing multiple previously worked out breaks & licks on a song they know inside and out) .

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I don’t think there is any confusion on my part. We’ve progressed from “rap” to “jam band” to whatever is next. We can separate that out when we get there.

I’d personally think we’ve left the land of improv on a brand new tune you’ve just heard. To me we left the Mayer practice video and went into scales and theory. Mayer as an example in the video was to show the technique of moving those shapes around.

We’ve also shifted into the “fun” side of music. At some point we’ll end up with identifying the melody of something you’ve just heard. That’s a future thing, confusion should end there.

To add to another concern…

Oh there is no doubt they know the songs very well. There’s also no doubt that they work on the songs and come up with ideas to maybe play the next time. They even have stock licks. I’d say that 30-50% is made up on the fly. They’ve never heard that 20-50% before, so they tune into each other, may copy each other, etc…but they are on a new melody they’ve never heard and are indeed improving over it. Then they finally bring it back to where the song started. It’s really no different than playing strictly melody on fiddle tune for the first time through then taking a break and coming up with a new melody that fist over the backing music. So now the entire band has a new melody in their ears and they can play off it.

It’s the same song over and over indeed, and they know it well… but at the end of the day on any style of music, a G chord, is a G chord, is a G cord, etc. So no matter what song you are playing, it’s simply a G chord and a progression. We know that G chord better than they do their backing.

Like you mentioned earlier about adding emotion, That G chord is the same in rap as it is in bluegrass. If you are in a major progression it doesn’t matter if it’s a rap song or not…same notes. It’s up to you to either copy the melody or improvise and come up with a new melody. If whoever takes a break first and comes up with a new melody then the rest of the band can copy it on the fly…so there’s the “just heard this melody for the first time” part of jamming.

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Yep, I probably definitely shoulda stayed out on this one - didnt know about free improvisation vs. the latter that you pointed out! :confounded: (thanx for pointing it out!!) Truth in advertising - I did say it was all way over my head though :thinking::grin:! Just plz excuse me & carry on :blush:!

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Ha, Simone you’re fine!

I don’t argue this thread is a bit confusing as it wanders from subject to subject. Even the OP kept saying “improv (jamming)” which can be a confusing term…because many people jam without ever improvising a thing.
But I’m off subject also, as Jesse has said, so I’ll refrain and let him get ithis thread back where he wants it.

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You know Dave I have a hard time following the flow on the forum myself.

The way posts are made and such it is hard to link back to a certain response/reply so it feels somewhat a conversation but “what am I missing” shows up and I fall out of the conversation.

It has certainly side tracked a bit but you know, that’s OK. We’ll veer back on track soon enough. If we need to hang a hard left and talk about other things along the way that will help anyone with anything, then we might as well pause at that spot and have a discussion about whatever it is.

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In regards to “Jerry’s skill set”…

You know he was banjo player first and foremost. If you look at that group that were bluegrass players around the same time that we all know. So Jerry Garcia took his bluegrass background and created “his sound” from it. Clarence White went from bluegrass to “The Byrds”. Tony Rice stayed in bluegrass and we all know what he’s given us! Don’t forget David Grisman and Sam Bush too.

That group of bluegrass players in that era influenced music for years to come over so many different styles…but for the most part they were bluegrass musicians. You can hear it no matter what they are playing. You can also hear their jazz side.

Just a fabulous group of bluegrass players that pushed forth from that era with a “new sound”.

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My nine year old grand daughter is starting to show some signs of that ability.

I’ll just play some popular chord progression I know, (she doesn’t), and she’ll come up with words and a melody to it. It needs much work, but she may get there if we keep working at it.

Also, while we do this, my four year old grand-daughter bangs on a pot covered with a towel to try to keep time. We call it our band. So much fun.

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Hey Jesse,

I’m very late to this conversation (Covid and all) but I have some thoughts to share.

First,

Free improvisation probably negates the idea that you are following theoretical “rules”. However, if you apply some music theory rules to your improvisations, then you might find that other folks will understand your improvisations better and in turn enjoy listening to the more.

This is why I always ask great improvisers (like David Grier) “what are you thinking when you play over (such and such)”? I am trying to understand their reasons for their improvised choices.

Many years ago, I was talking to a good friend, who was a very good improviser (bebop jazz and free jazz styles), about teaching improvisation. He stated blankly, “you can’t teach improvising”. I disagree. It can be taught as long as you understand what works and why.

First off, there are 2 distinct styles of improvising: following a melody and free improvising. Bluegrass “tends” to follow the first thought. When following a melody to create your improvisation, the listener should be able to “hear” the tunes melody weaving in and out of the improvisation. This creates a foundation for the improvisation and tends to require very little from the listener as far as trying to understand what is going on at any given moment (it is easy to listen to). Free improvisation tends to require more creativity from the player and closer listening from the listener. Free Improvisation generally just follows the basic harmony of the song and allows the player to create and completely new melodic line. Still, there are rules to such creativity that have to do with helping the listener to understand your improvisation.

At this point, I generally teach the six steps to creating an improvisation. Keep in mind that these are often taught to absolute beginners to improvisation and are meant to create a “map” for getting through a solo. These steps are for those who might like to try their hand at “Free Improvisation”.

Playing a solo is a lot like telling a story. Unfortunately, notes are not full words by themselves and most folks find listening to someone improvise to be difficult to follow. So your job as the improviser is to give the solo to the listener in a way that will feel organic, following a story line. Here are the 6 steps and why you should try to follow them:

  1. Start with a simple melody. If you are free improvising, then this would be a simple 4 to 7 note phrase. This should be simple enough that a blind, deaf person could hum it the first time hearing it. SIMPLE.

  2. Repeat the melody. You want to do this to create familiarity. If you are playing to a room of people, most will not hear what you first played. If you repeat it, half the people in the room may look up and think, “I heard that somewhere before”, not realizing that you just played it seconds earlier. You are just trying to get their attention and make them comfortable. If instead you choose to play something completely new, you will lose your audience immediately.

  3. Elaborate on the melody. This means that you may take that original simple melody and change the rhythm slightly. Or you may add a note (or possibly 2) to your original melody. DO NOT play something totally new yet. You want to pull the audience into your story. If you change things up too soon, you will lose them.

  4. Create tension. Now that you have your audiences’ attention, you want to make it more fun for them. Creating tension in your solo will make your “story” come alive. There are many ways to create tension:
    • A. Speed: playing faster will create tension. There are whole styles of music that rely near solely on speed to create tension (energy) in a solo, like hard rock/metal. You do not need to be Steve Vai to create decent tension with the addition of some speed to your solo.
    • B. Pitch: higher notes create tension. Play the same lick on the lowest notes of your guitar and then play it up and octave and then finally up another octave. You can see immediately that higher notes bring energy or tension to a solo.
    • C. Tricks: This is actually a large category and includes things like double stops (two notes at a time), excessive bending (bending or sliding in and out of blue notes repeatedly, finger tapping (not a lot of this in bluegrass (why not?)), octaves (playing 2 notes at the same time that are octaves from each other, cross-picking (a common feature of bluegrass) Fast cross-picking can be quite dramatic….etc.
    • D. Melodic tension: Playing in and out of a specific key. This can also be quite dramatic if used sparingly and properly. For example, you might play and short riff (3 or 4 notes) that is within the key and move that riff chromatically (by half step or 1 fret) up or down the fingerboard till you are in a position that has the notes back in the key again. If you do this right, you sound amazing, do it wrong (by ending outside the key) and you sound like you have lost your mind. :slight_smile:
    • E. Rhythmic tension: This could either encompass the concept that you are rushing to the end of phrases early, ending the phrase late, or superimposing a rhythm on top of the song that is outside the rhythm of the tune (playing 3 beats on top of 2 or 5 notes where there would normally be 4 etc.)

  5. Climax the solo/improvisation: As with a great meal, or a good book, there needs to be a climax to the solo. This generally happens near the end of the solo. In 32 bars, this might happen around bar 28 – 30). This is the point where you have built up the most tension in your solo.

  6. Release tension/Repeat the original melody: This is self explanatory but think about going back to the melody and bringing the tension back down by staying in thekey and slowing down and playing lower notes…etc

To understand this better, think of this as a short story a teen might tell their mother:

“Hey Mom, I’m going down to the store to pick up a loaf of bread”

obviously, the mother doesn’t really hear the son and she responds, “WHAT?!?”

so he repeats

“Hey Mom, I’m going down to the store to pick up a loaf of bread”

and elaborates

“Mom, I’m gonna pick up some rye bread at the store”

Mother is sort of getting what he just said. But now he wants to have some fun with her so he creates some tension.

“While I’m at the store, I’m gonna pick up some beer and rolling papers and stop by my friend’s house”

The mother eyes open wide and she runs to the room where her son is.

The boy climaxes the story, “When I get there, he has some hooker friends and we are going to have the party of our lives. Don’t worry though cause I’ll drive slowly on the way home cause I’ll be totally blasted by that time”

Stunned, the mother screams.

The boy laughs and says, “I’m kidding mom, I’m just going to the store to pick up some bread”.

He drew her in, he elaborated, created tension, climaxed the story and let her off easy.

That is the first lesson to learning what to do with all those notes under your fingers (you need to know the entire fingerboard pretty well to feel comfortable do this). However, you can apply these thoughts/tools even if you only know a small section of the fingerboard.

This first clip of the tune Summertime is sort of a combination of following the melody (you can hear it rear it’s ugly head throughout the solo) and free improvising. You will notice that in the last chorus, I play the highest notes in the solo and the I move away from the melody as I get further into the solo.

To be clear, each style of music has it’s own rules for improvisation. For example, bluegrass needs you to start and end each phrase on a chord tone (very different from free jazz). And the way you incorporate blue notes into a solo and how they are set up is very different between bluegrass, straight blues, swing jazz, free jazz and folk/pop music.

If you are interested, I can elaborate another time.

Take care,

Mike

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@DrGuitar1,
Mike, thanks for the great post, I like to read about that stuff… You know, for someday when I grow up (musically!), and can actually apply it :grin:!! Seriously though, someday I wish to be able to noodle my way thru tunes in that manner.

Great picking, I love Summertime! Thanx!

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Mike… how did you arrange for the sun to darken around 1:57 to create tension? Then you bring the sun back out for the end to bring it to a close. That’s crazy ability!!!

Seriously… nice post and I love hearing you play!

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That was SO cool! You should change your ID to Dr Smooth!

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the best way to learn to play with other people is to play along with a 12 bar blues song.

You can tune a normal 5 string to Open E, Open G, or Open A without too much trouble, then find a backing track in the right key.

Then just do whatever and stay in time, even flipping the D, C, and G is ok, just do whatever

here is an example

KEY of A -https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXuBVEXcGuI

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I have to respectfully disagree. Think of how many nuances can come from just a note of two of music. Think Carlos Santana, Miles Davis, a Grateful Dead concert. Millions of variations on a single song, for which you can make it your own.

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I’ll throw this dog a bone! And it’s kinda timely for me, for I was just having a discussion on “music as the universal language.” It’s a phrase you hear all the time, but if it’s true, why is it so often misunderstood?
We all know how much bluegrass is loved by the music industry :roll_eyes:
And there are people like me who are convinced “rap music” is a total contradiction in terms.
How many here can’t stand opera? Classical? Heavy metal? Modern Country?

OK, so there’s no accounting for taste. But why would a “universal language” change so frequently? Ragtime came & went, Swing came & went, and much to my heartache, I once read that “Rock and Roll was a form of music popular during the middle to late middle of the last century.” (ouch!)

All we really have to work with is “Do-Re-Mi…” and all it’s permutations, whether it is rap, country, bluegrass or sacred numbers. And that’s all you have in a jam session. Eight buckets of paint to mix & blend and apply in any way you want, to create whatever picture you want, to the best of your ability.

Who knows? I might be the first banjo player to get a Grammy for “Best Rap Instrumental!”

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You know I completely missed this response (and others). I tend to “go missing” in the summers from music because there’s so much work to do around the homestead…am here most winters though.

I appreciate your response.

Since I started this I have come a long way. Going into this winter (my guitar time) I started learning lead breaks by “ear only”. Once I had a few of those under my belt I asked Ben “what should I be working on next”. Ben pointed me to being able to pick out/play the singer(s) parts in a song.

Once I started working through this it almost instantly became apparent that over the past 3 years of scale work I had forgotten all about the rhythm and vocal sections. Ha, Once I started focusing on the singer everything changed. The minute I was able to keep the melody and the vocal parts in my head everything changed. I mean it happened in under 30 minutes. I thought it would take a month or more.

Thanks for the advise. This “jamming” topic has once again raised it’s head on the site and it looks like it’s gaining some traction. With that said - feel free to chime in and offer up some advice.

Oh I backed way up over the past three years…way back to scales and theory. I am about to step back up to bluegrass land (because that’s what I want to play) with better skills/knowledge and will def take any advice you have to offer up.

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After reading through this post it kind of gives you a different perspective on that Rap crap, I will have to start telling my wife’s grand kids all it is is a strange sounding bluegrass LOL that was stole from Earl

But all joking aside you are rite now that I think about it
I still do not think I could ever get comfortable with listening to it though

Ha ha. Hilarious.

Oh your Real Deal Rappers? Their vocabulary is astonishing. All they do is read dictionaries over and over and over again.

I was watching some documentary on something and rap came up. They focused on a young free style rapper. My biggest take away? He was on his 3rd version of the same dictionary because he wore the others out. He always carried a dictionary with him every he went through high school.

He took obvious music skills (probably perfect pitch) and solely focused on expanding his vocabulary. We do the exact same thing here in bluegrass land. Ben is showing us how we get “that sound” and that’s helping us expand our vocabulary. Read about music, listen to music every chance you get (car, house, garden out back, etc.) and also expand your knowledge by learning those scales and some theory.

Western Civilization is really the only civilization that has always shunned “musical improv”. Other cultures and societies encourage improv starting at a very young age. There was an awfully long dark period in music where I think everything was in C Major. That’s the least “sexiest” one of them all. Western Civ is pretty much Sunday Catholic Mass…not even close to close to the sounds coming from a small African-American Southern Baptist Church in Mississippi on a Sunday.