Moses had tablets?
Earth
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OK…At least the Gospel message is so simple that we don’t need quibble over the better translation. Praise God for its simplicity.
In the essentials, Unity. In the non-essentials, Liberty. In all things, charity.
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Aw, man! I was just starting to like the message bible… 
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Thanks Mike for the kind words!! 
I have so so much to be able to share it in a discussion forum, but we will see.
Jack, are you sure??
Gospel is a mystery. In an understandable language it says everyone cannot understand!
Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Because God did a marvellous work and wonder as he prophesied in Isaiah 29:14. Conventional wisdom perished, God’s wisdom was established.
I’ll put my thoughts together and share what is gospel. To sharpen our understanding.
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Mark, they all will “never get it!”. Context helps but you don’t really require it. In other words, from plain reading, corroborating with other scriptures, I can show in a convincing manner the intended meaning of a scripture is much different from what people believe it to be for. The reason for most of the divisions or denominations I believe is, they are not spiritual instead they are carnal. A reality check can easily reveal.
I Corinthians 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
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removed it by messing around… lol
It’s quite telling that in the first five hundred years of Christianity, the established (catholic) church split once. In the past five years, the southern baptists alone have split how many times? And that’s just the divisions of one denomination (I used them cuz that’s what’s all over SETX)
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I think you just proved my point.
When it’s all boiled down, most people believe they’re being lead by the spirit. Is the rapture a spiritual teaching? Pre-tribulation rapture theology originated in the eighteenth century. So, was everyone believing non-spirit lead teachings up until that point? Was everyone before then just wrong?
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Good points! It is scary how quickly division occurs in modern times. I do think differences predate these recorded splits. To me, it seems that the bulk of Paul’s letters were to address differences between churches and members within those churches (starting in 1 Cor 1 around verse 12). I am grossly over-simplifying, but the general response I read in Paul is A) if it is essential, fix it B) if it isn’t essential, get over it and love each other.
A couple nuggets that have stuck with me:
-
I’ll use Ben as an example because I know he can take it… I’d say about 20% of my theology is errant. I’d say the same about Ben… 20% of his theology is off. I can’t tell you which 20% of my theology is incorrect, but I’d be glad to point out where Ben’s is wrong.
(For any who don’t realize it: the above is just an illustration, and I don’t have any beef with Ben’s theology) -
Good theology is wonderful thing. However, there is not expected to be a theology exam to enter heaven.
I love the pursuit of knowledge of God. However, it breaks my heart to see division in The Church over things that are ultimately pretty petty. Jesus simply commanded us to love each other in the way that he did. It sounds like a simple command, but I still have a long way to go before I can say that I do that. I see that as the plank in my eye.
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Why, yes. Of course!!!
just kidding
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At least, not in your theology…
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Tying this thread to the recent Moon Landing… a thought occurred to me…
Interesting how we went there and - over the course of several different missions - stayed there less than 30 days combined - quite a short time… and managed to leave behind a whole lotta “stuff” (trying to be polite)… some useful scientific equipment (future waste) and much that is just (current) waste… from all that was jettisoned and will remain there for… 1,000 years… or more perhaps?
Now, I love nature but don’t consider myself a tree-hugger type either… so this notion strikes me…
How we, as humans, leave a trail behind us. We leave a mark (stain) and move on. Factor in the contributions of all countries who also explored there… and WOW…
I cannot think of a more dramatic example of some environment that was once untouched by us… pristine and pure… but no longer. 
Throw satellites into the mix… and the example is more dramatic!
Imagine “visitors” arriving to our planet… and the closer they get, the more man-made “stuff” is in the way. 
Don’t get me wrong… The advancement of science and exploration is an amazing and extraordinary God-given blessing.
I guess I just wished we could do a slightly better job collectively at picking up after ourselves.
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The Gospel which means good news, is simply this…Repent, and put your faith in Jesus to save you. That’s it…very simple.
In the essentials, Unity. In the non-essentials, Liberty. In all things, Charity.
If you desire to discuss this issue further please, PM.
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Mark, good thinking and good question! You know real and fake currencies. Both look alike. Now can you discount the real currency because of fake ones, or can you accept fake currencies because they look real? And you are at crossroads! You have a choice to make. There is no empty clean house (or vacuum). Something is waiting to fill in.
Apostle John said in I John 4:1, Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Many false prophets, when? In the very first century! You don’t believe anything by default! But when will you be able to test a spirit? When you are spiritually born and when you seek to be not conformed to the world (reality check can easily prove) from the renewing of your mind (may require further scriptural understanding) as @theChristiancowgirl pointed out. You will be able to know the source of the message - God or Jesus. Jesus said in John 8:28, I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And Jesus’ disciples taught/preached whatever Jesus commanded them. No more, no less. John 3:34, For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. Acts 17:10,11, it says Berean people were more noble because they searched the scripture to make sure Paul’s (one sent by God’s) teaching was true. Moreover, Jesus, Jesus’ disciples and Paul had endorsements from God as a testament to their teaching.
That said, I have not studied the scriptures about “rapture” to conclude one way or the other. Again I consider this more of a peripheral issue. I guess you are fine as long as you are ready to meet the Lord! But when I study I will share my thoughts. So the denomination difference might lie elsewhere, not on what meets the eye. I shared on the topic of love, a core theme. Do you think any of these differing denominations disagree (they may not accept, but disagree I doubt!) to whatever I had to say?? I’ll share one or 2 more examples. We can see what is from being led by spirit and what is not from those. Because the scriptures that I share is to bring to the unity of the faith while exposing the sleight of men mentioned in Ephesians 4.
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
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Jack, I’ll do PM as well. Might be tomorrow or weekend…
Mark, I’ll add this.
You know what, mostly they are all gone, right? All pre-18 century and as of now most of the post-18 century rapture theology believers. For the already dead, does rapture - pre-tribulation or post-tribulation - matter?? Obviously not! They have passed through that phase! Regardless they are all going to be judged. Now how is the judgment going to be? Is their pre-tribulation rapture or post-tribulation rapture belief going to be an item point for judgment?? Or would it be solely on their preparedness for the rapture - pre or post tribulation? Or as a judge, would you consider acceptance or rejection of such doctrine as rejection of Jesus words/commandments as in John 12:48?? He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Apostle John in I John 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. Should there be a debate necessary on things like how we shall be when we meet the Lord??
I would not use such theology for determining spirit led or non-spirit led teaching. I would consider such theology - one way or the other - as a non-spirit led (carnally minded) teaching if division intended for such beliefs.
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I’ve read the writings of many who believe differently.
That’s why we call it “faith.” It’s also why I don’t engage in deep debate on the subject of religion. It’s an endless rabbit hole because anyone can use scripture to defend just about any position. If you say “that’s not spirit led” you’re almost certain to be met with hostility. Everyone believes they’re being spirit led (yes, including both of us) but there’s no way that everyone actually is.
So, I’ve just learned to do the best I can, ask forgiveness when necessary (which is all the time) and strive to be better today than I was yesterday.
Mark, we will let the individual decide (including you and me!) which is being spirit led. We will simply place the yardstick. Because I’m pretty sure the very same everyone who said they were led by the spirit would now say they were not if clarity could be introduced to what is meant by “spirit led”!
Let me start with an example. One pastor, who loves quoting the scriptures that I share, shared about spiritual mindedness. After the sermon, he announced a Saturday fasting prayer. Later in the day in private I simply asked him just this - is this your fasting prayer spiritual or not (carnal)?
Being an open person, he immediately admitted that it was not spiritual. You know why? Because he knew this fasting prayer was to counter another fasting conducted at the same time by a newly joined family.
Now what is “spirit led”?
This can be understood in at least 3 ways:
- in the context of the text used in Romans 8, spirit inspiration to get “spirit of the law” type of understanding of scriptures. Or simply Jesus word/message minded.
- in the context of Acts 8:39, and maybe Matthew 4:1 too, spirit forcefully or otherwise leading/taking someone
- in the context of Revelation 1:10, spirit revealing through visions and stuff like that.
In our “rapture” case adjudication, by “spirit led”, I meant using the context 1 in Romans 8. I’m not sure if context 2 & 3 can be used (other than such contexts already in the bible), as it would pave way for story telling. Also I can’t say anything conclusive in this case as I do not know the full facts (scriptures) for rapture.
Sharing of my views is only to be able to get clarity for one to make correct judgment. It would be then up to the readers to take a stand on a particular case to either face hostility from God or from devil/world!!
So using context 1, “Spirit led” (walking after spirit) is what leads you to be spiritual minded. The opposite is “flesh led” (walking after flesh) which leads to carnal mindedness. The example I provided earlier should give a fair idea about what is spiritual and what is carnal.
Now I will explain what you need to do to be “Spirit led”. In order to be spiritual, one should operate through born again spirit (spiritual man). One cannot operate through flesh (carnal man).
It is like this. You are like how you think. In other words, you are like how your mind is. You indulge your mind to something; your action would be based on that something in your mind.
Proverbs 23:7
7 For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:
At least there is 2 choices of influence for mind in a born again person.
- Get influenced by your flesh (non-desirable)
- Get influenced by your born again spirit (desirable)
Flesh and spirit are contradictory by nature. Jesus said in John 3:6,
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Flesh (carnal man) —influence—> Your mind < —influence— Born again spirit (spiritual man)
In order for the 2nd choice to happen, you need to be born of the Spirit. Only then you could allow God’s Spirit to operate and influence your mind and thereby your behavior and activity.
Conventional wisdom expects controlling the flesh through flesh to have a correct behavior/action (this is works, hence a proven failure!) whereas God’s wisdom expects your allowing of God’s Spirit to have a correct behavior/action (this is labor of faith, hence success!). You know Jesus’ word sanctified his disciples! Jesus’ word is spirit! So all you need to do is, just listen to God’s word and believe in it! Your steps will be ordered by it! But then the problem today is, there’s not many (it is hard find) who is sent/appointed by God to dispense His true word, hence false word (false message), and no desired result in churches!
When you accept Jesus to become a Christian, you not only repent but you also consent/agree to play by kingdom of God rules. By design, rules of the worldly kingdom you are in are subordinate to the rules of this spiritual kingdom. So, what is the constitutional guiding principle for the rules of this kingdom of God?
Romans 11:36, For of him(God/Jesus), and through him(God/Jesus), and to him(God/Jesus), are all things:
Here, all things (creations) include man. Since man was created in the image of God, he was given free will, like God to act by his own counsel. Before accepting Jesus, it was of man/devil, and through man/devil, and to man/devil, for the fallen man.
A desire to be of him and through him and to him, and an action you show towards this desire, is what is repentence! When one thus repents and consents to play by kingdom rules (born again - spiritual man is born), one is given a clean slate to start with (justification), lost things in life restored (redemption), all kindgdom benefits (promise for this world and the world to come) becoming available, and help is provided to know and to play by the rules (wisdom and sanctification), all from believing. You then carry out your kingdom responsibility. Thus you become kingdom compliant.
So when someone claims he is spirit led and share a teaching, is he repented and born again? Is he guided by the kingdom principles and rules? Is his teaching fulfill spiritual purpose? If so, his teaching can be spirit led. If not, it is simply flesh led.
I hope you can agree with this yardstick for determining who is spirit led and what is being spirit led.
If anyone found wanting, the gospel is this - repent and believe (like pointed out here!), as the kingdom of God is right here, right now!!!
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I’m not sure how well I was able to articulate, as English is my second language. Moreover it is a lengthy write up. Hope you could follow and understand my message.
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Maybe we should start calling you brother John? Or pastor John…