[quote=āBanjoBen, post:14, topic:8030, full:trueā]
but I do see the value in seeing it in action.
[/quote]
@BanjoBen This is the definitely the key to learning backup. On the few bits of TAB and books on back up I have worked through I have learned quite a bit. I just started working my way through Eddie Collins and Bill Knopf 's back up books and these have been a great eye opener but their style of playing is altogether different.
I learned a lot by finding a simple backup method and using tefedit to apply it to you are my sunshine. Now I can practice by playing along with the tef file. I plan to do this to others until it becomes second nature to do on the fly.
Iām game. You guys pick 2 or 3 songs that have a good banjo backup. Hopefully Ben still has the isolated banjo tracks and Iāll tab them out.
Iāll get back to you on that @Mark_Rocka once I have had a chance to listen to some guitar & mandolin solos to see/hear what some of the banjo backup sounds like
Hi @Mark_Rocka & @BanjoBen
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guyās. Iāve spent the last couple of days going through pretty much every Guitar and Mandolin lesson save for the Christmas ones. Listening for Banjo Backup and here is the complete list. Well I may have let one or two slip by me.
What surprised me as I listened through these lessons was how few guitar & mandolin solos actually had banjo backup whilst pretty much all had either mandolin or guitar or both providing backup. Some of those solos that didnāt have banjo backup I really would have liked to have heard some banjo and been able to play along with.
Rather than picking out a few of my favourites I have decided to include the full list to help ascertain which if any isolated banjo backing tracks mp3 files from past lessons Ben still retains and we can begin to work things out from there.
In the list the follows the * denotes a multi instrument lesson
Guitar
Beginner Track
Buffalo Girls (B)
You are my Sunshine (B)
Intermediate Track
Cherokee Shuffle (I)
I decided to follow Jesus (I)*
Keep on the sunny side (I)*
Lifes Railway to Heaven (I)*
Red River Valley(I)* C
St Annes Reel (I)*
Under the Double Eagle (I)*
Advanced Track
Battle Hymn of the Republic (A)*
Beaumont Rag (A)*
The Big Sciota (A)*
Black Mountain Rag Key of A (A)*
Eighth of January (A)*
The Entertainer (A)*
I am a Pilgrim (A)*
John Henry (A)*
Leaning On The Everlasting Arms (A)*
Leather Britches (A)*
Lifes Railway to Heaven (A)*
Man of Constant Sorrow (A)*
Red Wing (A)*
Sailors Hornpipe (A)*
Turkey In The Straw(A)*
Will the Circle Be Unbroken (A)*
The Wray Wrhythm Wrun āCircleā (A)*
Mandolin
Beginner Track
Cripple Creek(B)
Wreck of the Old 97(B)
You Are my Sunshine (B)
Buffalo Girls (B)
Intermediate Track
Keep on the sunny side (I)*
Grandfathers Clock(I)
Leather Britches (I)*
Red River Valley(I)* C
Sailors Hornpipe (I)*
Soldiers Joy (I)
Under the Double Eagle (I)*
Wabash Cannonball(I)
Advanced Track
Angeline the Baker(A)
Battle Hymn of the Republic (A)*
Beaumont Rag (A)*
The Big Sciota (A)*
Eighth of January (A)*
The Entertainer (A)*
I decided to follow Jesus (A)*
John Hardy (A)*
John Henry (A)*
Leaning On The Everlasting Arms (A)*
Lifes Railway to Heaven (A)*
Man of Constant Sorrow (A)*
Old Joe Clark(A)
Red Wing (A)*
Turkey In The Straw(A)*
Will the Circle Be Unbroken (A)*
Wow Archie, thatās quite a bit of work. Thanks for that. 
The hard work is yet to start @Maggie. Need to sort through this lot to see what isolated banjo backing tracks mp3 files are available then begin the task of creating TABs.
Well, Iām glad itās you and not me then.
Goodness me Archie, have you slept? 
That must have taken quite a while to sort through, as you say still more hard work to come. 
@Archie and @Mark_Rocka. You guys are Workhorses. How are you going to find time to practice? My 2-cents on playing banjo backup, is to begin with just āvampingā through the piece through the chords softly to learn the tune, initially at least. Then add picking licks & tricks at the turnarounds if it can help the overall sound (not just āyourā sound!) I normally only add a rolling backup to hard-driving tunes like āThereās No Power in the Waterā, and then, the rolling must be absolutely precise, as the banjo cuts through everything and will expose any deviation from the beat and then you might have to begin ducking flying tomatoes & rotten eggs 
I guess backup tablature would be useful for learning, but Iād find it to be a distraction from actually performing as your backup style needs to change depending on what instrument or voice is soloing at the moment.
I also enjoyed Janet Davisā book on Banjo Backup, but to be honest, I think the banjobenclark.com lessons on backup are superior in terms of presentation, detail and scope.
Hi Jon, yes I did manage to sneak in some sleep. Spread over several days it didnāt take that long. All I had to do was listen and take notes. I even got in some practice.
I can just about vamp a little for back up, but I need to seriously start working on chords and the fret board geography and then some lick variations to the vamping.
Hi Neil
Since taking up the banjo some ten years ago the advice given to me on the BHO Forum was to go and learn to play some backup.
Problem for me living this side of the big pond is there are no teachers skilled enough to teach this topic and since I pretty much have had to manage my own syllabus to teach myself to play banjo from Books, DVDs and TAB which the teachers over here rely heavily on for reference.
Much of the instructional material on Backup was in printed TAB format as you will know from the Janet Davis books and as a beginner at that time I found a bit overwhelming.
As you work through the book you will see that she sticks pretty much to the same chord progression and simply swaps around licks. Not very inspiring when you donāt really know what your doing. Her DVD supporting the book offers little in the way of instruction and tunes are played at performance speeds.
As for the other DVDs available at that time covering this topic they were way beyond my skill level. So I wrote to several teachers asking them to create some video lessons in basic rolling backup techniques aimed at the beginner/intermediate level student. Those teachers who went out their way to accommodate my suggestion included Murphy & Casey Henry, Geoff Hohwald, Sean Ray and @BanjoBen.
The purpose of the TAB is to help each of us learn these skills so that we can apply these skills whist improvising in a live situation. You may feel content to vamp all the way through an entire tune but personally I would like to add a little more colour, I just donāt know how. More importantly Iād like to know where to insert the fancy stuff and where to lay off.
Unlike the BHO with folks constantly arguing amongst themselves trying to score points We are all students here and we are all striving for the same goals. Over the years lots of folks as well as teachers have been kind enough to help me in my quest to learn banjo none more so than @BanjoBen So If I can share some of my knowledge and experience to assist others then I am content and I am sure @Mark_Rocka has that same vocation.
Outstanding @Archie. Iām certain whatever information you assemble will be a help to all of us Students. Let me know if I can help in anyway. Happy Picking!
@Deere_Crossing, how did you go from vamping to rolling? I have to do it on paper first in tab to know how many beats is the roll and then apply to a part of the song that has that much room in it. I am amazed at people that can do this on the fly. I wonder how they got from point a to point b. They had to start somewhere.
Try this little exercise Joe. Vamp a G chord for two measures and then pick the 3rd string with the thumb (quarter note) and play 531 531 T TIM TIM
Now repeat the Vamps and play a Tag Lick.
Now see if you can work what to do with the C and D chords. Donāt try to write it down yet wait till you can figure something out that sounds right.
I been doing that lately. Playing G, C, and D with 321, 321, 32 for each measure. I guess I should have been more clear in my previous statement. I can do rolls for backup. I am missing the good stuff where people mix in rolls, licks, and other stuff I cannot distinguish into their backup. If I were to put in a lick, I would want to tab it out to see how many measures it takes up to know if it would fit. I guess I just need to do it and see. Other songs that split a measure into two chords are going to be a little trickier.
Ok I see. This is the reason is why @Mark_Rocka and I hope to TAB out some of Benās banjo backup audio tracks from previous guitar and mandolin lessons. These are so difficult to make out when Ben is playing a solo but if we can manage to TAB these out it will let students see what is going on and help them develop their backup skills through examples.
Hello Joe, Hey great question. I especially like how, banjo ben addressed this topic in his Allan Munde series āwhere to put your fingersā. It helps to start-out with āsafeā rolls that you know have the correct notes/measure. Itās a great lesson for expanding backup and also banjo bens vamping lessons canāt be ignored .
My own personal experience only; (take it as a grain of salt) but every song will have a chord structure and by āvampingā through the song, youāll be moving your fingers for the most part, where they need to be and can be vamped or rolled for the most part on a basic-level. A good example for rolling tricks might be the Tony Wray backup series. Youāll notice that those licks essentially force your hand into a chord position. Then when you want to add spice, you can through a roll or two in there, especially adding licks & tricks at the D-turn around or during times when the singer or soloist pauses. For sure, as you said, it takes work to roll and make the beats come out right, I think that comes with experience. Starting out with āsafeā rolls is a great way to start (e.g. square-rolls, alternating-thumb) but then experiment with more complex transitions. @banjoben has outstanding lessons on those juicy passing rolls, turnaround rolls and even intro rolls. I guess what got me started on backup, was playing as a youth in our monthly āhoe-downā (incidentally where I met my future wife ). There, I would spend 98% of the evening doing nothing BUT backup. When it became my turn to solo, I got so excited! Absent an actual partner to play backup to, itās always worked for me to just backup someone playing a solo on a recording. Any number of banjo ben lesson demos could be played to do exactly that. My humble opinion.
Hereās the thing about backup though. Youāll never play the same backup twice even in the same song. Earl Scruggs might revert to a tear-drop type back-up on the 2nd verse, when he did something different on the 1st verse, etcā¦ Otherwise, your backup will become dull & boring. The important thing, is to have the basic tools to lay in the back-up to express the mood of the song. Starting with vamping over the chord structure, then adding licks & rolls as you feel comfortable and as it fit. It seems to me, that banjobenās backup lessons are purposely presented exactly for this purpose. To give us the tools (rolls, licks, tricks, vamping structure) to use, and then we have to be able to think for ourselves to apply it which really, is inferred as part of the lesson. In the end, that is exactly what we need to do or weāll be doomed to read Tablature the rest of our lives. There is nothing wrong with tabbing out backup of course, its commendable. But youāll eventually find yourself looking just for chord structure and playing from the heart to assist the soloist. Anyway, this is my own personal experience and others will have their own ideas which could be better. The most important thing? Have fun and HAPPY PICKING!