I would second the question about the scales. Was there a specific reference/technique you used to memorize the notes?
An apology and A Confession
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It was basically learning the 5 positions of the Ionian (major) without having to be able to look and at a fairly moderate tempo/bpm.
Don’t get me wrong, I knew of scales and somewhat was familiar with the CAGED system but I was not efficient at moving around through the different positions nor was I efficient at moving from one position to the next position. I had to physically look. I sometimes would even hit the wrong string with the pick. Moving around on the guitar was a daunting task for me. Sure I could stay in a single scale position and do something with the notes but I could not be creative with them.
I guess you could say that the effort I was putting forth was tasking my brain so much that the creative side was completely shut down and not permitted to express itself with MY personality. Any attempt at a “jam” I’d find myself falling flat on my face in just a few short measures. Sure other folks that didn’t play lead thought it was amazing, but I knew I wasn’t fooling the musicians, it was garbage, made no sense whatsoever and failed miserably on the melodic side of things…I could wear out a G lick or a few other licks here and there but to me it just wasn’t acceptable. I was not creating music, I was copying music (or licks) that others created. I wanted to be my own musician. Call it a “composer” if you will.
Once I decided to learn the scales I gave up on everything else, scales it would be…for how long I did not know, but I was ready to make both the attempt and effort. To note: a person will see the CAGED system at some point if they simply learn the major scale in 5 positions or so. Those two terms are one in the same or equal. The CAGED system helps visually.
During all of this scale practice one should also know what notes make up the triad or chord. These 3 notes of a triad can be used in just about in combination creatively and you can get by with using only them and do OK with a lead break. The famous “G Chord” - G-B-D are the notes of the triad. If you are majoring in G then you can wear these suckers out while inside of the G chord of the progression. Also pay attention to their location to the root note.
For those that have not practiced their scales realize that outside of when you have to use the dreaded B string string the 3rd of the root is always one string below and back a fret. The 5th is always 1 string below and two frets forward from the root or 1 string right above the root. When switching to the next chord (say a C chord majoring in G and leaving the G to C) always practice hitting the first 1/4 note beat of the measure by hitting a C note. This sounds so much more musical. You can practice your scale work in the same manner. Grab a backing track that goes through a progression that you are accustomed to. We major out of G a lot, goes to C, back to G, then to D. A good way to practice is to start playing the G scale in time. The 1st qtr note of the measure there should be a G note, at least try to hit the next G an octave up in the scale on say the 4th (or last) quarter note of the beat. When the chord progression changes to C then simply start that scale practice out on a C note but work your way up (or down) the G major scale so that you land on a G note at the same time the progression moves back to G. Practicing this will make you become familiar with the “space between” those two ever import notes. That space is short when you start, man it flies by. After putting in a lot of time practicing the speed of things slows way down and you could bake a cake between those 2 important notes…and fill them with whatever your creative side can come up with.
It’s really difficult to explain via writing. I could explain it in person so much better.
Scale practice is physical and mental work. Those scales need to become 2nd nature so that you can free up some brain power to be creative. I am one that had to free up the brain power in order for creativity to reveal itself…memorizing those scales/patterns/notes, etc freed up my mind and permitted me to be creative. Some are born with this ability…the rest of us need to put in our time in the woodshed doing scale work up and down the neck until it becomes almost like breathing.
At the ed of the day now most progressions sound just as simple as the old 12 bar blues progression. We all hear that progression and think “man this is easy to follow”…over time and lots of practice nearly all progressions will be approached with the same simplicity.
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To expand on this a bit-
Once scale positions and notes become second nature then your ear can do a lot of work.
Currently I can zone my ear into listening to the bass and what the bassist is doing, I can have fun and mimic whatever they are doing, next split second I can drop all the other instruments into the background and bring forward the mandolin, pick up on what the mandolin player is playing and mimic that and play it back. Drums anyone? I can even pull the drums forward and play that beat through notes. In all of this I am managing the time, always slightly slowing down to mimic or slightly speeding a note up to keep it all together and in time. There’s a whole lot of space and time between the 1st and last quarter note of a measure in 4/4 time…it hasn’t always been like that to me…those suckers use to be jet fighters blowing by me at 700 miles an hour, now they are old ladies pushing a walker. Scale practice helped me slow that space between those quarter notes way down.
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I would say the note in tune just like one would singe Doe, Ray, Me, Fa, So, La, Tea, Doe. but instead use the notes of the scale.
Example:
Majoring in G
G = Doe
A = Ray
B = Me
C = Fa
D = So
E = La
F sharp = Tea
G = Doe
just call out/sing the names of the note in tune with that note.
Everyone knows the ol’ Doe, Rae, Me, Fa, etc…why not simply replace them with the note names?
Also see above for my response to an earlier post where I elaborated a bit on it all when asked.
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I see you are still putting that Hello Kitty guitar to use.
Maybe if I ever pick up one I can have you sign it?
Good to see you are still around. I know I popped my head back in here about a year ago for a split second then vanished. I think I’ll be here moving forward…gotta learn those licks.
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@oldhat40, thanks for explaining it all in detail. I did practice the CAGED scale patterns recently but as for as jamming, I might be worse than the old you.
Some takeaways: (if i understood it correctly)
- Practicing the 5 scale patterns until it becomes a second nature.
- Knowing/remembering the notes for a triad/chord in the scale, (I only knew the root in the scale patterns. Will this be for major chords or all chords in the progression including minor?)
- Playing the notes between the note of the chord that you are in and the note of the chord that you will land in in a progression. (I mean if I phrased it correctly.)
I realize I need to put in a lot of effort to get it in the head to play without thinking.
This will help, thanks so much!!
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I like the experimenting replacing Doe, Rae, Me etc. But if you are in a chorus and sing harmony, it is probably going to mess up your starting note for the part that you sing unless it is soprano. 
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Harmony -
Lead singer gets to start on whatever note they want that is in the major. There are some rules there but for the most part the lead singer gets to pick. If we are majoring in G but the lead singer starts with a D note, then the rest of us signing harmony have to chose between the other notes. Just because one is majoring in say “G” does not mean that you have to start on a G note.
View a “triad” as your immediate family. In a G chord you have G,B,D…call this Father, Mother, Sister. The A, C, E are cousins. The F sharp is the black sheep that nobody likes and really only talks to in passing just because they have to. Play your family notes, sometimes play your cousins and a good time to play the black sheep of the family (F sharp) is when you are walking past it to get back to your Father (G). It’s a semitone below the G, it really doesn’t belong but sounds pretty sweet as a passing note to get to G.
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I agree! That’s what I meant. You explained it well. Usually people know the melody. So for the soprano singer, it is not going to matter if they have to start with the 1st, 3rd or 5th note. They know the note from the melody. But I meant the starting trouble when others have to start with the other notes in the triad to create the harmony.
P.S: hmm interesting thing to note in what you say to remember the notes in a scale. For G scale, G, B, D is 1,3,5 for G . Then go up a whole which is A, and A, C, E is 1,3,5 for A. From G go down half, F#. They make up a scale??!!
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Yep, you’ve got it figured out.
On playing music:
Some are gifted in different ways, me I excelled at athletics, played college baseball and college golf, both were relatively simple to me. From an early age people would approach me and say “man you can hit that baseball to any side of the field you want, that’s amazing”…I might of been 8 years old, even in college that 90 mph fast ball came at me a lot slower than it did everyone else. Math was easy, Calc 3 meh, give me something challenging. I was horrible at grammar and music…no talent what so ever, it just wasn’t natural. I had to work HARD at music. We all have different talents but we all can be talented in just about whatever we choose if we can dedicate the time to it.
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You’ve got the C mixed up in what makes an A triad- It’s a C sharp that’s the 3rd in A major. The C in A major makes the A chord an A minor chord.
If you do not know, a C major is exactly the same! A minor and C major are all the same notes. Just like the relationship between The “E” in the G major scale…they are pretty much identical twins. In G major the E note (6th degree in the scale) is minor as a chord/triad and has the same notes as the G major scale - That’s why it’s called the “relative minor”…if you know an E minor scale then you can pretty much treat that as your G major scale. So in C you can play the A minor scale if you chose since it’s the same scale as the C major scale.
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Oh ok. Yeah I see I got it mixed up. The P.S. in my last post will not work then. But I understand the major and relative minor chords notes. But knowing it in the fret board or its application with playing the scales over the chord is my challenge.
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I just happen to be up late.
Anyway…
You sound like you are just about where I was 2-3 years ago before all my scale practicing and effort put forth of memorizing the fret board. If you have natural music talent then you may very well be able to skip all that scale practice. If you struggle with it you may want to dedicate some time into learning those scales and notes. As mentioned, we all learn differently. What works for me may not work for you.
Naturally talented musicians - Most have “perfect pitch”. I think Ben has “perfect pitch”. It’s a gift. If you pass Ben on the street and ask him to sing you an F note he can do it. Me, I have to hear the note then adjust my singing to it. Only takes a split second to get on the note but I just can’t sing out a G note on command. The “ear” I spoke of early drives that. Free up that ear to make corrections in your playing just like it does with making you adjust your pitch in order to get in tune with a note. We will never have perfect pitch like Ben but with work we can get close.
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True, I knew a chorus director, she played piano and she could sing in any key like Ben would. She uses a whistle for us. I think it also requires a lot of listening (bare minimum) among other things to acquire the talent. Which I don’t. I know the 5-patterns now, I have to get clean and accurate at normal speed, to move on to make progress.
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That comes from knowing your scales forward, backwards,sideways, up, down, etc. It also comes with an understanding…
Understand that when you are in G major and from a beginners standpoint are pretty much only going to use those notes of the G major scale no matter what chord you are in. If you are in G major and do a G,C,G, D progression then you still play those notes of the G major scale…but when you go to C start with a C note. When you go back to G start on a G note. When you go to D start with a D note…but stick with the notes within the G major scale. Those 7 notes.
With work you will see what notes are common in the G major scale, C major scale ,and D major scale. All 3 of those will share a lot of the same notes. You will know these common notes that all 3 share if you know your scales and notes…then you can use these notes.
For instance in G major and going to C - There’s no F sharp in C major like there is in G major…C major has an F in it vs the F sharp. So don’t play the F note because it clashes with the G. You can get by with it and that F shows up in bluegrass (blues). Using that F note in G major gives it a sad sound. Using the F sharp in G major gives it a happy sound. So C major has the notes C, D, E, F, G, A B. Note that G major has all the same notes besides for the F. Toss that note out and avoid it when you are in the C chord (and G is the major) C does not like the note F sharp, so avoid it when in the C chord. D loves F sharp and it’s in it’s scale and triad, so feel free to show that F sharp while you are in the D chord. Learn those notes.
I mentioned early that my brain is tracking and processing so many things at once. It’s actually fairly amazing to me, I mean it’s a feedback control loop that is tracking so many different things all at once and somehow manages to control all of those things. With me learning the fret board and a lo of music theory my brain does not have to devote so much time and effort into that like it use to…I’ve freed up space. At some point you will be able to use that extra brain power to get “cute” and jam with a melodic and creative spin on things.
The old joke is “She can’t walk and chew gum at the same time”. What if she practiced that for a long time? After a bit of practice she does not even have to think about walking and chewing at the same time, she can do both…but she has to practice.
There is nothing wrong with us…we just have to learn what comes a lot easier for some other folks. For those that it comes easy (er) to you will find them being “pros”. They just have a god given talent. We can join them but we have to work at it a lot harder.
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I play forward and backwards on the 5-positions. I believe then now I have to work on sideways, up, down. Once I learn this I should be in a pretty decent shape to absorb more theory. I thought if in G-scale, you stick with the notes in the scale for all G-major, C-major, and D-major but from you now it sounds like you switch scales patterns depending on the chord and drop notes based on the original G-key?? Anyways let me work on sideways, up and down first. Too much for me for now. 
I’m thinking of practicing this exercise alongside. 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2 (2 times), 1-3-2-4-3-5-4-2 (2 times) and then 1. A total of 10 exercises - 2 for each pattern (realize not 10 exercises as many repeat or similar). I’m assuming the skip “playing” will challenge to better tune the fingers for playing the notes in a chord/triad.
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Regarding what you are “thinking”…once you can see the fret board in your head then playing intervals like you mentioned becomes a lot easier. If you can see the fret and string in your head then your fingers automatically go there. See the fret and string in your head, do not look at it on the fret board…gotta see it in your head and hear if its correct with your ear.
To note: I’d hate to play under bright lights because nearly all of my practicing scales and jamming alone over the past year or so was done in a dark room. I wanted to be able to see it in my head and hear it with my ears, not look at it. I turned the lights out and started using my ears to correct things vs using my eyes to correct them. This really improved both my right and left hand technique and made my ears “super ears”.
When you scratch your nose do you have to go to a mirror in order to see to get your finger on your nose? I am a firm believer in practicing in the dark. We don’t need our eyes to make music and I honestly think they slow us down…gotta see it all in your head and use those ears. We could never play music without our ears. Those ears are a lot more important than the eyes. With enough practice (in the dark?) scales and notes will come as easy to you as touching the tip of your nose without having to look. The nose, ears, eyes, etc never move to a new location, they are always right there where we left them…same goes for the notes on a fret board - They are always in the same location (unless of course you play year old strings like me (lol)).
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Agree. I’ll keep that in mind and practice without looking but more from visualizing.
Play from hearing (audio) and play from looking (visual) is 2 different skills and to be adapt at both I think you will require more than double the effort as they kind of tend to cancel each other. You have to bring them together to complement each other is a challenge. At least one has to become a second nature for the brain to focus on the other. Or both should become second nature.
It is like memorizing the same in thing in 2 different languages. It is sort of hard though. You can learn separate things in 2 languages easily but the same thing in 2 different language, I find it sort of tough though.
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Well, @oldhat40, sounds like you’ve unlocked the next level. This conversation has gone over my head a few times, but I did understand a good bit of it. There’s quite a load of good info here, and I hope you do show up more frequently on the forum so we can absorb some of the wisdom you’ve learned in smaller more easily digestible packages.
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I guess you can say it’s my way of contributing back. If there are folks out there that think they are at the same level I was 2 years ago, then I don’t mind trying to explain how I got through it. Helping others with something like this is enjoyable.
I do hope that any of the folks around here that are at the next level above me takes some time and chime in on where they went next from this level. I’d like to keep progressing myself, but as of right now it’s fun…and that’s what I have always wanted to achieve.